Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-05-14, 16:06

Linguaphile wrote:I'm curious: Naava, does what Ainurakne described sound similar to how the two words are used in Finnish?

Yup, 100% agree! :)

The roof was the first thing to come to my mind, too. You build 4 x sein(ä) to support the roof, but a muuri/müür never has a roof. (At least I can't think of any example where it could have a roof.)
Muuri is basically a fence that's made of bricks or stones or some other material like that. And like ainurakne said, you use sein(ä) to create a space but muuri/müür to separate people. :D

And like in Estonian, masonry is called muuraus in Finnish, laying the bricks is called muuraaminen, and the person doing it is muurari, and the stuff you put between the bricks is muurilaasti... So I guess you could say bricks are important when it comes to building a muuri. :D

So.
Sisäseinä (indoors), ulkoseinä (outdoors).
Muuri, muuri and muuri.
Aita, kuusiaita. (Fences)

Linguaphile wrote:Both are loans; müür from Germanic, sein from Baltic.

Conclusion: walls were unknown to the Finnic peoples before that. Is this how etymology works?

I checked and it seems it's possible both sein(ä) and muuri/müür were loaned into the Proto-Finnic language. But I wonder why Estonian has ü while Finnish has u... :hmm:

Linguaphile wrote:. . . the words that mean sein in more distantly-related languages like Udmurt, Mari, Komi, Mansi, and Khanty are apparently related to Estonian pars (in the photo, not the walls but the horizontal beams with the luggage on top, normally/traditionally used for drying) and Finnish parsi.

First of all, I didn't know that's called parsi. :D I had heard of parsinavetta and I know that navetta is a cowshed, but I had never started to think what that parsi means.

And that thing in the Estonian pic, I'd call it parvi. It's suspiciously close to parsi, but I couldn't find any info about its etymology so we can only guess if it's a coincidence or not.

ainurakne wrote:I think both should be okay, although müür feels a lot more logical. After all, müür is a heavy-duty fence that you build to keep something or someone out, or to keep something or someone in.

This is why I changed the translation to muuri.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-14, 20:49

Naava wrote:And that thing in the Estonian pic, I'd call it parvi. It's suspiciously close to parsi, but I couldn't find any info about its etymology so we can only guess if it's a coincidence or not.

Awww, look, it's a flock of wood! That's adorable. :congrats: (Parv can also mean a raft, so I guess that's the semantic cognate. But the idea of it being a "flock" is so much cuter.). :D

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-05-14, 20:56

Linguaphile wrote:Awww, look, it's a flock of wood! That's adorable. :congrats: (Parv can also mean a raft, so I guess that's the semantic cognate. But the idea of it being a "flock" is so much cuter.). :D

I had never thought of it like that! :D But if you like this word, I think you'd love to hear that balcony is called parveke in Finnish - literally, 'a little flock of wood'.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-14, 21:02

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Awww, look, it's a flock of wood! That's adorable. :congrats: (Parv can also mean a raft, so I guess that's the semantic cognate. But the idea of it being a "flock" is so much cuter.). :D

I had never thought of it like that! :D But if you like this word, I think you'd love to hear that balcony is called parveke in Finnish - literally, 'a little flock of wood'.

:congrats: :congrats:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Both are loans; müür from Germanic, sein from Baltic.

Conclusion: walls were unknown to the Finnic peoples before that. Is this how etymology works?

:nope: No, I don't think that's how etymology works. :D Although if I remember correctly, Läti Henrik in his Liivimaa kroonika, or some similar document, had a story about Estonians/Livonians laughing at the stone walls that were being build for castles because they thought it would be easy to pull down the stones and get inside. It seems they did not know about masonry and mortar :?: so I guess that particular type of wall at least was new at the time, if that story is true.

Naava wrote:I checked and it seems it's possible both sein(ä) and muuri/müür were loaned into the Proto-Finnic language. But I wonder why Estonian has ü while Finnish has u... :hmm:

Where did you check that? Wiktionary says Estonian müür came from Middle Low German mür while Finnish muuri came from Swedish mur. But it's Wiktionary, so who knows. Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat says the Estonian word is from Low German (alamsaksa) mure.
It's not a big deal to know exactly where this word came from - but if you have a good source for etymologies in general, besides Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat and Wiktionary, please share!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lauri » 2018-07-20, 19:35

See Dutch 'muur'. Pronunciation is as in Estonian. The MLG spelling was as it was, never can be sure.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-07-20, 20:25

Linguaphile wrote:It's not a big deal to know exactly where this word came from - but if you have a good source for etymologies in general, besides Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat and Wiktionary, please share!

Oh, sorry - looks like I never answered! :oops:

Unfortunately, I don't have one super good source to give to you. There are bunch of articles and master's theses on net, and I use those. They are mostly in Finnish though, so I don't know how helpful it'd be to anyone else. If you're really interested to have a look, one journal that I really like is Kielikello. They write about everything related to language, so there's occasionally some etymology stuff, too. For example, I really enjoyed this - it's about the use and origin of words like 'bridesmaid' and 'bestman'.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-21, 16:41

Aitäh teile mõlemale!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby france-eesti » 2018-09-15, 6:42

Tere!
I have a (loll) question... About expressing the possessive.
In Hungarian, the mark of the possessive goes behind what is possessed:

Sister = nővér
My sister = A nővérem The sister (of) mine
Your sister = A nővéred The sister (of) yours
Zsolt's sister => Zsolt nővére Zsolt sister (of) his

I was wondering how it works in Estonian:
I only know "My" something (from anthem)

Mu isamaa => My fatherland
But how would it work when we talk about someone?
=> Priit's fatherland

Would the mark of the possessive go to:
-Priit
-fatherland
-somewhere else?

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Prantsis » 2018-09-15, 11:24

Tere!

Estonian has no mark for the possessive. The genitive case is used, and genitival complements go before the noun.

Strictly speaking, mu is not a possessive adjective, it's just the genitive form of ma. (It can serve other purposes than the expression of the possession.)

Priit's fatherland Priidu isamaa

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Salajane » 2018-09-15, 12:37

Prantsis, do you know where I can find the list of Estonian names' declesions? I often have doubts when I have to use a name in a case other than nominative.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Prantsis » 2018-09-15, 14:21

If you mean a list of first names, then no, I don't.

About the declensions of first names:
http://emakeeleselts.ee/omakeel/2016_2/OK-2-2016_09.pdf

List of family names with their declensions:
http://keeleabi.eki.ee/isikunimed/index.php

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-15, 16:25

Declensions of personal names can be difficult even for Estonians. See, for example, some of the articles clarifying the declension of President Kaljulaid's name from around the time she was elected:
Kas Kaljulaiu, Kaljulaia või Kaljulaidi?
Kas käänata Kaljulaiu või Kaljulaidi? Presidendiks pürgiv Kersti Kaljulaid täpsustab
And two years later you will still sometimes see news articles about her using Kaljulaid-Kaljulaiu-Kaljulaidu even though she herself uses Kaljulaid-Kaljulaidi-Kaljulaidi.

The two links that Prantsis provided are the best ones I know of, too. By the way the Isikunimeandmebaas (Prantsis's second link) does include some first names as well, even though it's mainly family names. On the other hand, it lists only the Kaljulaid-Kaljulaiu-Kaljulaidu variation for Kaljulaid, although there are technically three possibilities and the Estonian president uses one that isn't listed, so it's not perfect. :mrgreen:

Another place to look up some of the more common first names is Eesti keele süntesaator (if you aren't already familiar with it, it's a great resource for declensions and verb conjugations of any word, not just names, but it does include some first names in its database too).

One of the problems with names is that there are quite a few that can have two different forms. For example
Toomas-Tooma-Toomast (older) and Toomas-Toomase-Toomast (newer)
Urmas-Urma-Urmast (older) and Urmas-Urmase-Urmast (newer)
Kai-Kaie-Kaiet (older) and Kai-Kai-Kaid (newer)
Both sets are correct.
Mark is Mark-Margi-Marki when it's an Estonian name but can be Mark-Marki-Marki when it's an English name.
There is also Liis-Liisi-Liisi and Liis-Liisu-Liisu (two different possibilities, like two different names), not to mention Liisi-Liisi-Liisit and Liisu-Liisu-Liisut) and so on. I'm not sure whether *Liis-Liisi-Liisit and *Liis-Liisu-Liisut are possible or not; they aren't listed in the database, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are used too (especially when you consider that one could be used as a nickname for the other, it seems as though there could be quite a lot of variation).

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby france-eesti » 2018-09-17, 11:47

Merci Prantsis ja aitäh :)
I was kind of holding the hope Estonian was working like Hungarian but I knew by "mu isamaa" that chances were few it was the case :)
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-17, 17:00

france-eesti wrote:I was kind of holding the hope Estonian was working like Hungarian but I knew by "mu isamaa" that chances were few it was the case :)
There most likely has been a similar construct (or even a construct of the same origin) in Estonian once. Maybe not even so long ago, considering Finnish still have possessive suffixes:

Sister = Sisko
My sister = Siskoni
Your sister = Siskosi
Zsolt's sister = Zsoldin siskonsa

(this doesn't remove the usage of genitive case, though)

I'm not sure if there are any Estonian dialects that still have possessive suffixes. They definitely don't exist in Standard Estonian any more.
But which came first - possessive suffixes or genitive case - that I do not know. Maybe someone else can answer that.

---

As far as my logic goes, possessive suffixes on nouns seem to be the equivalent of personal endings on verbs - both seem to have developed from personal pronouns appended to words. Except, in case of personal endings on verbs, this only applies to the first and second person. The third person's endings emerged later and has a different origin.

For example, let's take the word tulla = (to come), the development could have been something like this:

*tulek + *mi(k**) -> *tulekmi(k**) ->*** *tulem -> tulen (I come)
*tulek + *ti(k**) -> *tulekti(k**) ->*** *tulet -> tuled (you come)

*tulek + *mek -> *tulekmek ->**** *tulemme -> tuleme (we come)
*tulek + *tek -> *tulektek ->**** *tulette -> tulete (y'all come)

*tulek + *mak -> *tulekmak ->**** ∅
*tulek + *tak -> *tulektak ->**** ∅


** I have no idea whether these were just the first syllables of *minä (I) and *tinä (you) or were the pronouns actually *mik and *tik once. The latter would form a nice *mik - *mek - *mak and *tik - *tek - *tak symmetry, though.

*** I guess the word-final i may have disappeared (as it often tends to do), making the consonant cluster impossible.

**** Dual forms *mek and *tek were extended to all plurals while plural forms *mak and *tak fell out of usage.


Is there a similar pattern observable for Hungarian possessives?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-09-17, 20:34

ainurakne wrote:Sister = Sisko
My sister = Siskoni
Your sister = Siskosi
Zsolt's sister = Zsoltin siskonsa

The suffix is only used with pronouns or when the owner and what is owned are separated (usually by a verb):

Minun laukkuni - my bag
Sinun laukkusi - your bag
Hänen laukkunsa - his/her bag
Zsoltin laukku - Zsolt's bag

Zsolt otti laukkunsa ja lähti - Zsolt took his bag and left
Zsolt otti hänen laukkunsa ja lähti - Zsolt took someone else's bag and left

(Foreign names don't have consonant gradation, with the exception of some Estonian names.)

*tulek + *mi(k**) -> *tulekmi(k**) ->*** *tulem -> tulen (I come)
*tulek + *ti(k**) -> *tulekti(k**) ->*** *tulet -> tuled (you come)

Where did you get the -mik/-tik? I don't remember seeing it, but it's possible I've just forgotten. :hmm:

**** Dual forms *mek and *tek were extended to all plurals while plural forms *mak and *tak fell out of usage.

So they didn't survive anywhere in Estonia? :o That's interesting because there are some Finnish dialects where it was the *mek and *tek that disappeared and *mak and *tak that took their place. For example, standard Finnish "me tulemme" is "me tuumma" in Southern Ostrobothnian dialect, "myö tuumma" or "myö tulemma" in Savonian and South Eastern (aka Karelian) dialects and "met tulemma", "met tulema" or "met tuumma" in Peräpohjola dialects. (I couldn't find info about South Eastern dialects in English, but there's a Wikipedia page in Finnish here if you're interested.)

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-18, 1:31

I don't have much to add right now, but this is a really interesting discussion. I'm sure I've seen the -ni possessive suffix in old Estonian songs at some point, but I don't know which dialect, and I'm pretty certain it's no longer used anywhere. And from what I understand the Saami languages had possessive suffixes until very recently but aren't really using them anymore.
As for which came first (the genitive or the possessive suffix), I'd like to know that, too.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-18, 5:54

Naava wrote:The suffix is only used with pronouns or when the owner and what is owned are separated (usually by a verb):

Minun laukkuni - my bag
Sinun laukkusi - your bag
Hänen laukkunsa - his/her bag
Zsoltin laukku - Zsolt's bag

Zsolt otti laukkunsa ja lähti - Zsolt took his bag and left
Zsolt otti hänen laukkunsa ja lähti - Zsolt took someone else's bag and left

(Foreign names don't have consonant gradation, with the exception of some Estonian names.)
Thanks! I guess I still got a long way to go before I get the hang of using possessive suffixes in a natural (or even correct) way. It would also help if only I wouldn't forget the rules which I have already heard of before. :roll:

Naava wrote:Where did you get the -mik/-tik? I don't remember seeing it, but it's possible I've just forgotten. :hmm:
Just my wild imagination. But they do seem to fit in the pattern nicely in every way (possessive -ni and -si). Or maybe the dual and plural pronouns were once longer (and all were cut down to one syllable when appended to anything)?

After all, singular, dual and plural of a corresponding person (in case of the first and second person) must have all formed from the same base.

Naava wrote:
**** Dual forms *mek and *tek were extended to all plurals while plural forms *mak and *tak fell out of usage.
So they didn't survive anywhere in Estonia? :o That's interesting because there are some Finnish dialects where it was the *mek and *tek that disappeared and *mak and *tak that took their place. For example, standard Finnish "me tulemme" is "me tuumma" in Southern Ostrobothnian dialect, "myö tuumma" or "myö tulemma" in Savonian and South Eastern (aka Karelian) dialects and "met tulemma", "met tulema" or "met tuumma" in Peräpohjola dialects. (I couldn't find info about South Eastern dialects in English, but there's a Wikipedia page in Finnish here if you're interested.)
Not that I know of.

But in your Finnish examples it seems that the pronouns themselves didn't survive either, only the personal endings?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby france-eesti » 2018-09-18, 14:48

Tere! Ja, aitäh! :D
ainurakne wrote:Sister = Sisko
My sister = Siskoni
Your sister = Siskosi
Zsolt's sister = Zsoldin siskonsa

Ah thanks! Yes, I was wondering about this! So Estonian evoluted so as to use possessive pronouns (Mu isamaa) while Hungarian remained with the possessive suffixes... Did you also have article + possessive pronoun?

A kutyám => The Dog mine
Or has Estonian always been article-free?

ainurakne wrote:As far as my logic goes, possessive suffixes on nouns seem to be the equivalent of personal endings on verbs - both seem to have developed from personal pronouns appended to words. Except, in case of personal endings on verbs, this only applies to the first and second person. The third person's endings emerged later and has a different origin.

For example, let's take the word tulla = (to come), the development could have been something like this:

*tulek + *mi(k**) -> *tulekmi(k**) ->*** *tulem -> tulen (I come)
*tulek + *ti(k**) -> *tulekti(k**) ->*** *tulet -> tuled (you come)

*tulek + *mek -> *tulekmek ->**** *tulemme -> tuleme (we come)
*tulek + *tek -> *tulektek ->**** *tulette -> tulete (y'all come)

*tulek + *mak -> *tulekmak ->**** ∅
*tulek + *tak -> *tulektak ->**** ∅


** I have no idea whether these were just the first syllables of *minä (I) and *tinä (you) or were the pronouns actually *mik and *tik once. The latter would form a nice *mik - *mek - *mak and *tik - *tek - *tak symmetry, though.

*** I guess the word-final i may have disappeared (as it often tends to do), making the consonant cluster impossible.

**** Dual forms *mek and *tek were extended to all plurals while plural forms *mak and *tak fell out of usage.


Is there a similar pattern observable for Hungarian possessives?

Not on simple present or something like this - just with "kell" => must. Then you add personal suffix.

For example: mosni = to wash. Must = kell
I must wash => Kell mosnom.
You must wash => Kell mosnod

So it seems the philosophy is really different here... But it still seems Estonian is more "normal" to me than Hungarian :silly:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-09-18, 16:12

Võta heaks!
You should definitely also read the post by Naava, as my Finnish examples are flawed.
france-eesti wrote:So Estonian evoluted so as to use possessive pronouns (Mu isamaa) while Hungarian remained with the possessive suffixes...
More like pronouns in genitive case - they act the same way as any other genitive noun or adjective in the same position.
france-eesti wrote:Did you also have article + possessive pronoun?
A kutyám => The Dog mine
Or has Estonian always been article-free?
I'm not aware of any articles ever been in Finnic languages.

france-eesti wrote:Not on simple present or something like this - just with "kell" => must. Then you add personal suffix.

For example: mosni = to wash. Must = kell
I must wash => Kell mosnom.
You must wash => Kell mosnod

So it seems the philosophy is really different here... But it still seems Estonian is more "normal" to me than Hungarian :silly:
Oh, I meant whether Hungarian possessive suffixes look similar to personal pronouns. In a way that they may have once developed from personal pronouns being appended to words.
(In case there is any base forms of pronouns that the forms of other cases are built upon? Or can pronouns even have cases in Hungarian?)

Haha, Hungarian mosnom and mosnod look like Estonian mõsen (I wash) and mõsed (you wash) from the dialectal mõskma/mõsta (to wash). :lol:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-09-19, 0:54

ainurakne wrote:Haha, Hungarian mosnom and mosnod look like Estonian mõsen (I wash) and mõsed (you wash) from the dialectal mõskma/mõsta (to wash). :lol:


(et)/(vro) (Estonian/Võro) mõskma
(mrj) (Hill Mari) мышкеш mõškeš
(kv-kpv) (Komi-Zyrian) мыськыны mõśkõnõ
(udm) (Udmurt) мыськыны mõśkõnõ
(mdf) (Moksha) муськомс muśkoms
(myv) (Erzya) муськемс muśkems
(mhr) (Meadow Mari) мушкаш muškaš
(yrk) (Nenets) масӑ masă
(hu) (Hungarian) mos
:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qK67nQmsas
Mõsumõskmine (excerpt)
Hoi taara, hoi taara
naakõ rõivit mõskõmahe
lumbi viirde lopotama
kulda-ks päivä rõiva kuivas
puhta-ks rõiva sai puulpühäst
valgõ-ks rõiva vahtsõst nädälista

Washing the Laundry
Let's get started washing the clothes,
Rinsing at the edge of the pond.
The golden sun will dry the clothes,
The clothes will be clean for Saturday,
The clothes will be white for the new week.


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