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No worries! I didn't mean it like mud or filth either. But kind of like the taste of earth.Linguaphile wrote:Ah, the light, refreshing taste of wood and dirt!
I want to say that it sounds so Estonian, but I think it might be misinterpreted. I'm not saying Estonians eat wood and dirt and I don't mean it as an insult.
Kõivuke?Linguaphile wrote:But since the name Kaseke is already taken, I have no idea what we'll call the stuff.
See on ma-tegevusnimi. Näiteks:Irusia wrote:Mis tähendab -maie? Ma hakkasin lugema "Kalevipoega" ja ma näen seda sufiksi tihti.
ainurakne wrote:KõivukeLinguaphile wrote:But since the name Kaseke is already taken, I have no idea what we'll call the stuff.
ainurakne wrote:See on ma-tegevusnimi. Näiteks:Irusia wrote:Mis tähendab -maie? Ma hakkasin lugema "Kalevipoega" ja ma näen seda sufiksi tihti.
Tulge ruttu, noored mehed, tulge nüüd tulda hoidemaie, kibemeida keelamaie, sädemeida seademaie! =
= Tulge ruttu, noored mehed, tulge nüüd tuld hoidma, kibemeid(=kübemeid) keelama, sädemeid seadma!
As far as I know, the current standard Estonian ma-infinitive is actually fused together from two different forms: illative and instructive. The first may have looked something like *-mahen (provided it was similar to illative case endings of nouns and adjectives).
Most final "n"-s disappeared anyway. "...ahe" may have turned directly into "...aje/aie", or may have turned into "...ae" and then enhanced with "j/i" sound to retain the syllable count for poetical reasons.
For the same reasons, you may also encounter illative forms of nouns/adjectives that end with "-je".
-da/-ta is the partitive case ending. Nowadays the final a has disappeared and in case of soft d, the whole case ending has disappeared (hence kala instead of *kalada) unless preceded by a long vowel (e.g. maad). Although there are lots of words that have the current partitive form extended to them by analogy (mostly -t partitive?), and so they don't fit the pattern.Linguaphile wrote:Also, an extra vowel at the end of words, or an added -da syllable at the end of words (I believe these are older forms)
There is some magical amount of syllables in runic songs and verses, so all means are used to hit that mark.Linguaphile wrote:I can't remember the reason for the e'e and a'a in those examples, but it's also common (lengthened vowel made into two syllables).
ainurakne wrote:There is some magical amount of syllables in runic songs and verses, so all means are used to hit that mark.Linguaphile wrote:I can't remember the reason for the e'e and a'a in those examples, but it's also common (lengthened vowel made into two syllables).
Good point. I didn't even think about comparing those with Finnish -- double vowel in a non-stressed syllable could mean something (like h) has disappeared from there?Naava wrote:I think these probably used to have two syllables where we now have only one: kauge'ella = Finnish kaukahalla, taeva'aie = taivahasehen.
ainurakne wrote:Good point. I didn't even think about comparing those with Finnish -- double vowel in a non-stressed syllable could mean something (like h) has disappeared from there?Naava wrote:I think these probably used to have two syllables where we now have only one: kauge'ella = Finnish kaukahalla, taeva'aie = taivahasehen.
I see. That's interesting.Naava wrote:I suppose it's true because the Proto-Uralic language had only CV and V syllables.*
...
*And, as you can see in ve'en and veessä and Estonian vees, lost consonants have created long vowels in stressed syllables, too.
I was wondering, why'd you translate väki as people until I checked it from dictionary and saw, to my surprise, that the primary meaning of väki in Finnish is indeed people. In Estonian, vägi could also mean a bunch of people (or occasionally some other things), but the primary meaning is still power, strength, force.Naava wrote:Laitapa ve'en väkeä
- veessä on väkeä paljo -
(The translation is something like "make the people of water [to do it] -- there are many spirits in water")
ainurakne wrote: I was wondering, why'd you translate väki as people until I checked it from dictionary and saw, to my surprise, that the primary meaning of väki in Finnish is indeed people. In Estonian, vägi could also mean a bunch of people (or occasionally some other things), but the primary meaning is still power, strength, force.
Also, according to the etymological dictionary, it seems that the adverb väga (very) is actually an irregularly shortened form of väega (with 'vägi' - whichever meaning it has here). Which is interesting, I think.
Naava wrote:I suppose it's true because the Proto-Uralic language had only CV and V syllables.*
...
*And, as you can see in ve'en and veessä and Estonian vees, lost consonants have created long vowels in stressed syllables, too.
ainurakne wrote:Also, according to the etymological dictionary, it seems that the adverb väga (very) is actually an irregularly shortened form of väega (with 'vägi' - whichever meaning it has here). Which is interesting, I think.
Naava wrote:I mixed it with vähe
Wow, that was very interesting!Naava wrote:Yes, but in this case it refers to the mythological creatures/spirits that live in waters, fire, wind and so on. They were said to have powers, and if you made them angry, they made you ill. It was called väen vihat (lit. the anger of the people). There is a Wikipedia article in Finnish, but sadly not in any other language.
Late-born? Lately-born?Linguaphile wrote:... hilissündinud (not sure how to translate this word ) ...
Vahetevahel on vahedevaheliste vahede vahel vahedevahelised vahed vahel.Linguaphile wrote:(Sõnade) vähe ja väga vahel on aga suur vahe.
ainurakne wrote:Late-born? Lately-born?Linguaphile wrote:... hilissündinud (not sure how to translate this word ) ...
ainurakne wrote:Linguaphile wrote:(Sõnade) vähe ja väga vahel on aga suur vahe.
ainurakne wrote:Vahetevahel on vahedevaheliste vahede vahel vahedevahelised vahed vahel.
Linguaphile wrote:ainurakne wrote:Late-born? Lately-born?Linguaphile wrote:... hilissündinud (not sure how to translate this word ) ...
Yeah, that's what I came up with too, but I don't know what that means either so I was hoping there'd be some other translation....
Linguaphile wrote:Thinking about Naava's väga/vähe comment: since they are nearly opposites, I found it funny.
And not to mention, many people decline õudne as õudsad, õudsate, õudsaid and so on.Linguaphile wrote:I know, they don't seem much alike in nominative singular, but in other cases you end up with õdusad/õudsed, õdusate/õudsete, õdusaid/õudseid, and, well...
Sorry, I don't know it either. But I have had the impression that this wasn't a very widespread change, it just happened so that Standard Estonian is based on a dialect (or group of dialects) that had this change.Naava wrote:Note that the development of Estonian wasn't discussed much during the course so I can't say when it changed to pea.
Sorry, I don't know this either!Linguaphile wrote:For eample, the partitive kalaða changed to kalaa. I don't know if Estonian went through a similar phase or if it went straight from kalaða to kala. If someone knows, I'm interested to learn more.
Naava wrote:Linguaphile wrote:ainurakne wrote:Late-born? Lately-born?Linguaphile wrote:... hilissündinud (not sure how to translate this word ) ...
Yeah, that's what I came up with too, but I don't know what that means either so I was hoping there'd be some other translation....
Do you mean the translation doesn't sound good or that you don't know what these hilissündinud vowels are?
ainurakne wrote:And not to mention, many people decline õudne as õudsad, õudsate, õudsaid and so on.Linguaphile wrote:I know, they don't seem much alike in nominative singular, but in other cases you end up with õdusad/õudsed, õdusate/õudsete, õdusaid/õudseid, and, well...
ainurakne wrote:The only attempt to reconstruct North Estonian seems to be this one (page 19). And it doesn't seem to be very reliable.
...
There's probably not much help (or maybe there is for a trained eye?) from early written texts either, as they were written by non-Estonians and according to German rules. For example, I found this from around the center of 16th century (you can click on individual words to see their meanings).
Naava wrote:Linguaphile wrote:Thinking about Naava's väga/vähe comment: since they are nearly opposites, I found it funny.
I think it took me a while to learn them because both of them look a lot like the spoken Finnish vähä, 'a bit; little', which is also used as 'very' so that you can say vähä paljo and it means 'so much; very much'.
Linguaphile wrote:Oh wow, that would be confusing then! I didn't know Finnish vähä could be used that way. It seems strange (to me vähä paljo sounds like "a little a lot" or some such thing, and I would have assumed it meant a small amount). But in English we can say "quite a bit" with a similar meaning, so I guess it's not so strange. (Although in English "a little bit" is the opposite of "quite a bit" though.)
Naava wrote:How about just 'quite'? I've got the impression it's 'not so much' in BrE but 'very' in AmE. It's not exactly the same thing because it doesn't have two meanings in the same variety (as far as I know) but the two meanings are similar to 'vähä'.
Naava wrote:I suddenly got a high fever so I'm not going to study languages for some time. I mean, I have a cough but I didn't have a fever before.
All the best wishes from me too! Hopefully it's nothing serious and you'll get well soon!Naava wrote:I suddenly got a high fever so I'm not going to study languages for some time. I mean, I have a cough but I didn't have a fever before.
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