Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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Naava
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-05-14, 16:06

Linguaphile wrote:I'm curious: Naava, does what Ainurakne described sound similar to how the two words are used in Finnish?

Yup, 100% agree! :)

The roof was the first thing to come to my mind, too. You build 4 x sein(ä) to support the roof, but a muuri/müür never has a roof. (At least I can't think of any example where it could have a roof.)
Muuri is basically a fence that's made of bricks or stones or some other material like that. And like ainurakne said, you use sein(ä) to create a space but muuri/müür to separate people. :D

And like in Estonian, masonry is called muuraus in Finnish, laying the bricks is called muuraaminen, and the person doing it is muurari, and the stuff you put between the bricks is muurilaasti... So I guess you could say bricks are important when it comes to building a muuri. :D

So.
Sisäseinä (indoors), ulkoseinä (outdoors).
Muuri, muuri and muuri.
Aita, kuusiaita. (Fences)

Linguaphile wrote:Both are loans; müür from Germanic, sein from Baltic.

Conclusion: walls were unknown to the Finnic peoples before that. Is this how etymology works?

I checked and it seems it's possible both sein(ä) and muuri/müür were loaned into the Proto-Finnic language. But I wonder why Estonian has ü while Finnish has u... :hmm:

Linguaphile wrote:. . . the words that mean sein in more distantly-related languages like Udmurt, Mari, Komi, Mansi, and Khanty are apparently related to Estonian pars (in the photo, not the walls but the horizontal beams with the luggage on top, normally/traditionally used for drying) and Finnish parsi.

First of all, I didn't know that's called parsi. :D I had heard of parsinavetta and I know that navetta is a cowshed, but I had never started to think what that parsi means.

And that thing in the Estonian pic, I'd call it parvi. It's suspiciously close to parsi, but I couldn't find any info about its etymology so we can only guess if it's a coincidence or not.

ainurakne wrote:I think both should be okay, although müür feels a lot more logical. After all, müür is a heavy-duty fence that you build to keep something or someone out, or to keep something or someone in.

This is why I changed the translation to muuri.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-14, 20:49

Naava wrote:And that thing in the Estonian pic, I'd call it parvi. It's suspiciously close to parsi, but I couldn't find any info about its etymology so we can only guess if it's a coincidence or not.

Awww, look, it's a flock of wood! That's adorable. :congrats: (Parv can also mean a raft, so I guess that's the semantic cognate. But the idea of it being a "flock" is so much cuter.). :D

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-05-14, 20:56

Linguaphile wrote:Awww, look, it's a flock of wood! That's adorable. :congrats: (Parv can also mean a raft, so I guess that's the semantic cognate. But the idea of it being a "flock" is so much cuter.). :D

I had never thought of it like that! :D But if you like this word, I think you'd love to hear that balcony is called parveke in Finnish - literally, 'a little flock of wood'.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-14, 21:02

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Awww, look, it's a flock of wood! That's adorable. :congrats: (Parv can also mean a raft, so I guess that's the semantic cognate. But the idea of it being a "flock" is so much cuter.). :D

I had never thought of it like that! :D But if you like this word, I think you'd love to hear that balcony is called parveke in Finnish - literally, 'a little flock of wood'.

:congrats: :congrats:
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Both are loans; müür from Germanic, sein from Baltic.

Conclusion: walls were unknown to the Finnic peoples before that. Is this how etymology works?

:nope: No, I don't think that's how etymology works. :D Although if I remember correctly, Läti Henrik in his Liivimaa kroonika, or some similar document, had a story about Estonians/Livonians laughing at the stone walls that were being build for castles because they thought it would be easy to pull down the stones and get inside. It seems they did not know about masonry and mortar :?: so I guess that particular type of wall at least was new at the time, if that story is true.

Naava wrote:I checked and it seems it's possible both sein(ä) and muuri/müür were loaned into the Proto-Finnic language. But I wonder why Estonian has ü while Finnish has u... :hmm:

Where did you check that? Wiktionary says Estonian müür came from Middle Low German mür while Finnish muuri came from Swedish mur. But it's Wiktionary, so who knows. Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat says the Estonian word is from Low German (alamsaksa) mure.
It's not a big deal to know exactly where this word came from - but if you have a good source for etymologies in general, besides Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat and Wiktionary, please share!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lauri » 2018-07-20, 19:35

See Dutch 'muur'. Pronunciation is as in Estonian. The MLG spelling was as it was, never can be sure.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-07-20, 20:25

Linguaphile wrote:It's not a big deal to know exactly where this word came from - but if you have a good source for etymologies in general, besides Eesti etümoloogiasõnaraamat and Wiktionary, please share!

Oh, sorry - looks like I never answered! :oops:

Unfortunately, I don't have one super good source to give to you. There are bunch of articles and master's theses on net, and I use those. They are mostly in Finnish though, so I don't know how helpful it'd be to anyone else. If you're really interested to have a look, one journal that I really like is Kielikello. They write about everything related to language, so there's occasionally some etymology stuff, too. For example, I really enjoyed this - it's about the use and origin of words like 'bridesmaid' and 'bestman'.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-21, 16:41

Aitäh teile mõlemale!


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