soe - partitive plural

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fms
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soe - partitive plural

Postby fms » 2014-05-11, 10:09

Tere!

I'm new to Estonian, and find it a bit hard to understand the system for constructing partitive plural.

How do you construct this case with the word "soe" (gen. sooja, part. sooja)?

Any help would be much appreciated!

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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby ainurakne » 2014-05-11, 10:57

Hello and welcome, fms!

There are two partitive plural forms for "soe": the long form "soojasid" and the short form "sooje" (strong/overlong, like its singular counterpart).

You can always look up all the words you are not sure about from here.

I guess using the long partitive plural would be the easiest for beginners. For that you take either singular genitive or partitive (whichever is the stronger form, I guess) and append "-sid". But you can't do that to all of the words.

Short partitive plural is trickier. Basically it's the so called i-plural, which means that an i is appended to the stem of the word before the case suffix (just like in Finnish), but in Estonian much of it has fused together or otherwise become somewhat irregular over the centuries, so there are no simple rules for that - and if there are, I am not familiar with them, so I am not able to explain them, sorry :blush:
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fms
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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby fms » 2014-05-11, 11:07

Tänan, ainurakne!

It is more clear for me now; thank you for a wonderful explanation!

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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby ainurakne » 2014-05-11, 12:53

You are welcome!

Also, I found this page about what they call vowel-plural. Here's a quick translation of it:
The possibility of vowel-plural depends on the word-class. If a word-class enables the vowel-plural, then it appears at least in partitive case (either as the only possibility or in parallel with -sid), e.g. `aasta : `aasta/i/d, `siil : `siile ~ `siili/sid. In some word-classes vowel-plural can appear in parallel with de-plural also in locative cases, in translative case and (depending on the the type of the vowel-plural) in genitive, terminative, essive, abessive and comitative. Vowel-plural never appears in nominative case.

There are two types of vowel-plurals: i-plural and stem-plural. In case of the first one, plural is marked by i, which is appended to the stem, e.g. `aasta/i/d, karvase/i/d. In some word-classes i has merged into the stem. This has lead to the formation of plural stem, where the plural marker and the stem are not separateble from each other, e.g. `siil (: siili) : `siile, maja : maju, `kurk (: kurgi) : `kurke. This kind of plural is called stem-plural.

...

When a word uses i-plural, then the forms of vowel-plural appear (in addition to partitive case) also (in parallel with te-plural) in locative cases and in translative case, e.g. `aasta : `aasta/te/sse ~ `aasta/i/sse, `aasta/te/s ~ `aasta/i/s, `aasta/te/st ~ `aas­ta/i/st, `aasta/te/le ~ `aasta/i/le, `aasta/te/l ~ `aasta/i/l, `aasta/te/lt ~ `aasta/i/lt, `aasta/te/ks ~ `aasta/i/ks.

In some cases the addition of i brings forth certain changes in the final vowel of the stem.
  • When i is appended to a stem which ends with i, then at the end of the stem i → e, e.g. `voodi : `voode/i/d, kanal : kanali : kanale/i/d.
  • When i is appended to a stem which ends with long vowel, then the long vowel shortens, e.g. `maa : `ma/i/d, i`dee : i`de/i/d.

In case of stem-plural it depends on the word-class how (much) does the vowel-plural appear. In case of the words of the VI declenation-class (excl. õnnelik-type) and in pesa-type the stem-plural is usually limited to partitive case, e.g. `siil : `siile, pesa : pesi. In other cases the stem-plural appears only in idiomatic expressions and compound words, e.g. `jalg : `jalgu, jalu/s (olema), käsi : käsi, käsi/le (võtma), `jälg : `jälgi, jäli/le (jõudma), `täht : tähti, tähis(taevas), muna : mune, munele (hakkama). In poetic language the stem-plural can appear also outside the fixed phrases, e.g. Neil harvul hetkil mina jälle mina. In õnnelik-type the stem-plural is completely ordinary on all cases, execpt nominative, in parallel with de-plural: õnne`lik : õnne`likku/de ~ õnnelike, õn­ne`likku/de/sse ~ õnnelike/sse, õnne`likku/de/s ~ õnnelike/s, õnne`lik­ku/de/st ~ õnnelike/st, õnne`likku/de/le ~ õnnelike/le, õnne`likku/de/l ~ õnnelike/l, õnne`lik­ku/de/lt ~ õnnelike/lt, õnne`likku/de/ks ~ õnnelike/ks, õnne`likku/de/ni ~ õnnelike/ni, õnne`likku/de/na ~ õnnelike/na, õnne`lik­ku/de/ta ~ õnne­like/ta, õnne`likku/de/ga ~ õnnelike/ga. Also in seminar-type and V declanation-class (in jõuline- and oluline-type) the stem-plural is more regular outside of partitive case than in VI declanation-class and pesa-type.

I hope it makes some sense. :wink:

EDIT: The declanation-classes themselves are in this intimidating table.
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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby fms » 2014-05-11, 19:40

I think registering on this site is the best thing I did learning Estonian. Thank you so much!

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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby Virankannos » 2014-05-12, 8:19

If the word class is one where the formation of a short plural partitive is permitted, the final vowel is determined by the following rules:

(stem vowel in singular > final vowel in plural partitive) (example)
i > e (kool : kooli > koole)
u > e (toit : toidu > toite)
e > i (meel : meele > meeli)

When the stem vowel in singular is a, it gets trickier.

1) if the first syllable has the vowel a, i, õ (or a diphtong where any one of them is the initial element), or either of the diphtongs ei and äi.
a > u (leib : leiva > leibu; kala : kala > kalu)
2) if the first syllable is short and has the vowel u
a > e (nuga : noa > nuge)
3) if the first syllable has any other vowel or diphtong
a > i (pesa : pesa > pesi; julm : julma > julmi)

The exception is that if a were to become i after j, as in soe, it becomes e instead, because *ji is not allowed in Estonian: soe : sooja > sooje (not *sooji)

The abovementioned rules have 5 exceptions:
pikk : pika > pikki
silm : silma > silmi
king : kinga > kingi
neli : nelja > nelju
väli : välja > välju

fms
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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby fms » 2014-05-15, 16:51

Thank you; these explanations are of great help!

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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby Thon » 2014-05-19, 3:27

neli / nelja / nelju


Does that mean 'four' or is it a homonym? I'd like to know the partitive plurals of all the other numbers.

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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby ainurakne » 2014-05-19, 7:23

Yes, it is four.

üks : ühe : üht(e) -> üksi / ühtesid
kaks : kahe : kaht(e) -> kaksi / kahtesid
kolm : kolme : kolme -> kolmi / kolmesid
neli : nelja : nelja -> nelju / neljasid
viis : viie : viit -> viisi
kuus : kuue : kuut -> kuusi
seitse : seitsme : seitset -> seitsmeid
kaheksa : kaheksa : kaheksat -> kaheksaid
üheksa : üheksa : üheksat -> üheksaid
kümme : kümne : kümmet -> kümneid

üksteist(kümmend) : üheteist(kümne) : üht(e)teist(kümmet) -> üheteistkümneid :?:
etc...


NB: All partitive plurals here are stressed/overlong, but the ones that end with i (or u in case of nelju) need special attention, because they also have unstressed/short versions, which is genitive plural (not really used in Estonian) and instructive case.
For example (instructive case):
üksi = alone, at ones' own, by oneself, unaccompanied
kaksi ~ kahekesi (I have no idea how to say this in English)
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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby Suvi » 2014-06-24, 9:25

Devastated by plural partitive, I made a simple chart trying to make things easier. It looks still complicated.

In my native language, which is Chinese, there is no singular-plural distinction. It took me quite a while to get familiar with expressions like "punased maasikad". Here, I can hardly think of a sentence using plurals of numbers.

Maybe in this situation, where a list is full of random numbers, 1 2 4 4 2 1 6 4 4 1 4 5 4 4,
it's ok to say "Nimekirjas on palju neljad". But in which case "neljade" and "nelju" are used? Please help.
Last edited by Suvi on 2014-06-28, 6:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: soe - partitive plural

Postby ainurakne » 2014-06-24, 14:34

Suvi wrote:Here, I can hardly think of a sentence using plurals of numbers.

Maybe in this situation, where a list is full of random numbers, 1 2 4 4 2 1 6 4 4 1 4 5 4 4,
it's ok to say "Nimekirjas on palju nelju/neljasid".
Or "Nimekirjas on nii mõnedki neljad.".

Indeed, when using numbers like "things", you can easily use plurals, for example, grades in Estonian schools are given using numbers from 1 to 5 (mostly 2 to 5 when I was young):
"Mul on tunnistusel kõik viied.", "Sul on liiga palju kahtesid!", etc...

You also use plural numbers when you speak about things that only exist in plural form, for example "püksid": "ühed püksid", "kahed püksid", "kolmed püksid", etc... (although you can also say "üks paar pükse", "kaks paari pükse", etc...)
Another things I can think of that always come in pairs are "käärid" (scissors) and "prillid" (glasses).

When you are talking about approximate numbers from around 10 to several tens, from around 100 to several hundreds, from around 1000 to several thousends, etc...
For example: "Tulekahju tõttu jäid kümned inimesed koduta." (Tens of people lost their homes because of the fire) or "Riiuli peal on sadu raamatuid." (There are hundreds of books on the shelf).


Suvi wrote:But in which case "neljade" and "nelju" are used? Please help.
In the light of my previous post, by "nelju", are you referring to short partitive plural or rarely used instructive case (or even rarer -- almost non-existant -- short genitive plural)?

EDIT: You can most easily use all kinds of cases when you are talking about numbers as somekind of physical or logical objects, for example numbers written on the paper or numbers made out of plastic.
All I could think of are these creepy sentences :mrgreen:
"Neljad on ilusad." - Number fours are beautiful.
"Mulle meeldib neljade kuju." - I like the shape of number fours.
"Ma armastan nelju/neljasid vaadata." - I love to watch number fours.
"Neljadel mitu teravat tippu." - Number fours have many pointy ends.
"Neljades on midagi lummavat." - There is something captivating about number fours.
"Mulle meeldib neljadega mängida." - I like to play with number fours.

Using tens, hundreds, thousends, etc is also easy.
"Sajad inimesed...", "Sadade inimeste elud on ohus.", "Siin on sadu inimesi.", "Sadadel inimestel on sarnased mured.", "Sadade inimesteni ei ole see teade veel jõudnud.", etc...
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