Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

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Linguaphile
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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-03-24, 18:08

aaakknu wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(For those unfamiliar with this: e-etteütlus is an annual Estonian-language dictation contest which occurs on Estonia's Mother Tongue Day, which was last week.)

I'm curious, how many countries have such a contest? There's one in Ukraine as well.

Again, it's good to hear from you! :mrgreen:
As for your question, though I'm really not sure! The Estonian one is the first (and only) one I know about. I'd be curious to know, too. Naava, do they do this in Finland?

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2022-03-24, 20:37

Linguaphile wrote:
aaakknu wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(For those unfamiliar with this: e-etteütlus is an annual Estonian-language dictation contest which occurs on Estonia's Mother Tongue Day, which was last week.)

I'm curious, how many countries have such a contest? There's one in Ukraine as well.

Again, it's good to hear from you! :mrgreen:
As for your question, though I'm really not sure! The Estonian one is the first (and only) one I know about. I'd be curious to know, too. Naava, do they do this in Finland?

No, although you could argue the matriculation exam on Finnish is one big spelling test. One year they made the students write about renki* and then had fun reading the essays because not many had known it's renki : rengit, not renki : renget. We also had dictation tests in the first grade in primary school. The teacher would read words to us and we had to write them down. When we got better at writing, she read entire stories that we had to transcript. But that's it. Never heard of any bigger, official dictation tests like they have in Estonia. I think it's a fun idea though! :)

* farmhand; a man who works for a farmhouse and lives with them, but isn't related to the family.

Also, good to hear from you, aaakknu! I've been thinking about you and how you are doing.

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-03-24, 21:49

I found out that there used to be one for Dutch called Groot Dictee der Nederlandse Taal, but it was discontinued in 2017 due to lack of interest. It is a bit different from the Estonian one: the participants are televised. There are only about 60 participants, about half of whom are "invited prominent figures" and it's shown on TV. With the Estonian one, anyone can send in responses. No participants are televised, but this year 8942 people participated (last year, it was more than ten thousand).

I also found out that the Dutch one began in 1990, the Ukrainian one began in 2000 and the Estonian one began in 2008.

Which way does it work in Ukraine: anyone who wants to participate can send in their response, or a (relatively) small number of people are chosen to compete? (I mean I guess 60 isn't really all that small, but compared to 10,000 it is!)

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2022-03-24, 22:38

Linguaphile wrote:I found out that there used to be one for Dutch called Groot Dictee der Nederlandse Taal, but it was discontinued in 2017 due to lack of interest. It is a bit different from the Estonian one: the participants are televised. There are only about 60 participants, about half of whom are "invited prominent figures" and it's shown on TV.

Whose lack of interest? The audience? The prominent figures who were invated to make spelling mistakes while being televised? Someone else? :hmm:

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-03-24, 22:54

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:I found out that there used to be one for Dutch called Groot Dictee der Nederlandse Taal, but it was discontinued in 2017 due to lack of interest. It is a bit different from the Estonian one: the participants are televised. There are only about 60 participants, about half of whom are "invited prominent figures" and it's shown on TV.

Whose lack of interest? The audience? The prominent figures who were invited to make spelling mistakes while being televised? Someone else? :hmm:

The audience, apparently. At least, that's how I understood it. Not enough viewers for the televised program. :noclue:

I also forgot to mention that the Dutch contestants compete against Belgian (Flemish) contestants in teams. So, that would be "prominent figures who were invited to make spelling mistakes on behalf of their country while being televised." Sounds like fun, doesn't it? But apparently getting contestants wasn't the problem, people just didn't want to watch anymore. :mrgreen:

The Estonian one has winners in seven different categories: overall winner, student, person with a native language other than Estonian, Estonian living abroad, best smartphone-typed response, philologist, and hearing-impaired contestant. One of these years I'll have to actually submit my own attempt, but so far I've never even managed to listen to the dictation until after the whole thing is over. (This year, I forgot about it until I posted yesterday.)

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2022-03-25, 10:04

Linguaphile wrote:I also forgot to mention that the Dutch contestants compete against Belgian (Flemish) contestants in teams. So, that would be "prominent figures who were invited to make spelling mistakes on behalf of their country while being televised." Sounds like fun, doesn't it? But apparently getting contestants wasn't the problem, people just didn't want to watch anymore. :mrgreen:

Aaa, so they were too good, then. It's no fun if nobody fails badly.

One of these years I'll have to actually submit my own attempt, but so far I've never even managed to listen to the dictation until after the whole thing is over. (This year, I forgot about it until I posted yesterday.)

Oh, same. I've always thought I'd like to try and then I forget. :roll:

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2022-03-25, 15:53

Linguaphile wrote:This year's e-etteütlus:
2022. aasta e-etteütluse tulemused

I tried the two first sentences because I should actually be doing something else but I'm procrastinating once again and I was rather surprised how well it went because I didn't understand half of the words I was writing down! :lol: I'll put my attempt and the answer behind spoilers in case you want to try it yourself before seeing the answers.

What I wrote:
► Show Spoiler

What it should've been:
► Show Spoiler

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-03-25, 21:20

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:This year's e-etteütlus:
2022. aasta e-etteütluse tulemused

I tried the two first sentences because I should actually be doing something else but I'm procrastinating once again and I was rather surprised how well it went because I didn't understand half of the words I was writing down! :lol: I'll put my attempt and the answer behind spoilers in case you want to try it yourself before seeing the answers.

What I wrote:
► Show Spoiler

What it should've been:
► Show Spoiler


It's actually really surprising how many of the exact same mistakes we made! I'll post the first two sentences like you did, and put it in spoiler tags too in case others want to try it before seeing ours.

My first two sentences:
► Show Spoiler


My commentary:
► Show Spoiler


In the other three sentences, the dialogue and the r-i põristav part really confused me. Plus I was definitely not expecting the last sentence to be so short. I got it, but the first time I wrote it I just kept going (I was listening to the second time she said it, I think, and so I wrote out Eks ta ole, ja lõpuks jälle veelkord kogu etteütluse teksti., with the sentence plus what she said after.
I remember I did that once in a past year's dictation and Ainurakne said a lot of others had done that too. With this one, earlier in the sentences they really were talking about dictation so that made it more believable that what she said after was part of it. Anyway, by that point I really wasn't following the meaning all that well, because of the earlier parts that I had misunderstood. It's a little hilarious what they did with that (the "metafiktsioon" in which they are talking about the dictation itself), but initially very confusing!

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-03-27, 20:28

Something that I don't understand well from the dictation is the phrase r-i põristav.
Because it's a phrase instead of an individual word, it doesn't appear in any dictionaries and the closest I can find from a dictionary is this:
põristama põrinal (ka järsul toonil) rääkima v. häälitsema. Bassihäälel, madalal kurguhäälel, kurgu põhjast põristama. „Tere, tere!” põristas mees nagu tõrrepõhjast. „Mis siin toimub?” põristas Reinu bassihääl. Põristas laulukooris oma vägevat bassi. „Tpruu!” põristas Tõnu hobuse seisma. Poiss põristas veidi r-i. Juut põristas kõrinal r-häälikut. Põristab naerda, naeru. Taat põristab öösiti köhida. *Nüüd aga põristas teine hääl: „Sulle öeldi, et seisa paigal!” R. Parve.

Glosbe translates r-i põristamine as "rhotacism" and Saagpaak has põristama as "roll, trill, tattoo, rattle".

So the nightingale is rolling or trilling his r's, right? Because the verb is põristama I think it should be that he's trilling his r's :?: , but what confuses me about that is that the nightingale doesn't say a single word with an r-sound. He says
► Show Spoiler
So are they just saying that he trills his r's because we know this Emajõgi nightingale does this when he speaks, even though he's not doing it right now? (Maybe because we're supposed to know that nightingales trill.) Or does it mean that he's inserting r-sounds into his dialogue where there should be none, because even though I don't think that's what it means, considering that there are no r's in his dialogue it would be the meaning that would make more sense? :hmm:
It confused me so much that in my dictation I wrote it as eripõristav Emajõe-äärne ööbik, even though I didn't understand what that would be either, and debated for a while over whether to write it as one word or two (eripõristav or eri põristav?) :rotfl:
:mrgreen:

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby aaakknu » 2022-04-19, 17:24

Estonian-Ukrainian dictionary is here!
https://www.eki.ee/dict/ukraina/
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2019

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-04-19, 17:35

aaakknu wrote:Estonian-Ukrainian dictionary is here!
https://www.eki.ee/dict/ukraina/

Yay! Nice. Дякую!

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2022-12-02, 17:05

EKI keelehääling, I osa: kui raske on õppida eesti keelt?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94mT-jTLZE

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-02-08, 14:47

In some thread around here I'm sure that I once posted about the letters õäöü being written as oe, ae, oe, and ue in Soviet-era telegrams and I think I posted a link to this video there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eUB32kTnY&t=480s
but I can't find the post. Anyway, I came across this (this... gem? monstrosity?) and wanted to add it to that post, so I'll just put it here:
Image
NAISTEPAEEWAOENNITLUS*

The way languages influence each other and get mixed up in odd ways fascinates me in general,but honestly what I think makes these so amusing to me in particular is that the result is pretty much what the Estonian language actually looks like to those who don't speak it. Long words and extra vowels taken to an extreme. :mrgreen:


*NAISTEPAEEWAOENNITLUS is actually supposed to be: naistepäevaõnnitlus, "women's day congratulations/wishes"
/nɑistepæevɑɤnːitlus/, not /nɑistepɑe:vɑoen:itlus/

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2023-04-17, 18:57

Linguaphile wrote:In some thread around here I'm sure that I once posted about the letters õäöü being written as oe, ae, oe, and ue in Soviet-era telegrams and I think I posted a link to this video there:
[...]
but I can't find the post. Anyway, I came across this (this... gem? monstrosity?) and wanted to add it to that post, so I'll just put it here:
[...]
NAISTEPAEEWAOENNITLUS*

The way languages influence each other and get mixed up in odd ways fascinates me in general,but honestly what I think makes these so amusing to me in particular is that the result is pretty much what the Estonian language actually looks like to those who don't speak it. Long words and extra vowels taken to an extreme. :mrgreen:

I know this is the Estonian subforum but let me just leave this here...
Image
The Finnish wrestler, K. Mäenpää, also known as MAEENPAEAE.

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-04-18, 2:27

Naava wrote:The Finnish wrestler, K. Mäenpää, also known as MAEENPAEAE.

:doh:

Kui olulised on täpitähed?
Image

Mul on külm = I am cold
Mul on kulm = I have an eyebrow

Olen tööl = I am at work
Olen tool = I am a chair

Lõhelõigud = salmon steaks
Loheloigud = puddles of dragon

Padjapüür = pillowcase
Padjapuur = pillowcage

Elu ilma täpitähtedeta:
Täpitähed toovad sõnadesse rõõmusädet ja positiivsust. Võibolla seetõttu on eesti keel üks kaunikõlalisemaid maailmas. Seega, eesti keel ilma täpitähtedeta on kui suvi lämmatava päikeseta. Seepärast ei tohiks iialgi täpitähti eestlaste eneseväljendusvahendist välja jätta.

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-06-13, 16:43

Estonian language society wants to change spelling of several foreign words

A simple rule applies in Estonian: words are generally spelled the way they are pronounced. Some foreign words have so thoroughly adapted to the language, however, that their pronunciation and spelling no longer match.

Which is why, starting next month, the Mother Tongue Society plans on allowing spellings reflecting phonetic adaptations alongside official spellings. In other words, going forward, it will no longer be considered incorrect to write karatee instead of karate, tsunaami instead of tsunami, gaala instead of gala or polügon instead of polügoon.

"When we're attending the formal event, I'm not sure an Estonian would ever say they're attending a gala — that sounds funny in my opinion," said Urve Pirso, head of the Language Committee of the Mother Tongue Society.

"While tsunaami and gaala involve a long a sound, the word karate [or karatee] sparked confusion over how to decline it," Pirso explained. "According to current norms, the correct form in the partitive case would be karatet, not karateed.

...

"What linguists have noticed is the conjugation of the words taotlema and töötama," Mäekivi highlighted. "The correct conjugation for these words would be the same as armastama, with the word stem remaining entirely unchanged: taotlema, taotleda, taotlen. But more and more often we're hearing taodelda, like the word töötlema [töödelda]. So that may be a word that the Language Committee will discuss at some point in the future."

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2023-06-14, 15:34

Linguaphile wrote:Estonian language society wants to change spelling of several foreign words

"When we're attending the formal event, I'm not sure an Estonian would ever say they're attending a gala — that sounds funny in my opinion," said Urve Pirso, head of the Language Committee of the Mother Tongue Society.

:lol:

This is what I'd wear if I went to a gala.

"What linguists have noticed is the conjugation of the words taotlema and töötama," Mäekivi highlighted. "The correct conjugation for these words would be the same as armastama, with the word stem remaining entirely unchanged: taotlema, taotleda, taotlen. But more and more often we're hearing taodelda, like the word töötlema [töödelda]. So that may be a word that the Language Committee will discuss at some point in the future."

That's interesting, because that "incorrect" form (taodelda) sounds more similar to spoken Finnish tavotella than what taotleda does! It's clearly the superior form for this word if even Estonians are changing it... :mrgreen:

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-06-14, 16:05

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Estonian language society wants to change spelling of several foreign words

"When we're attending the formal event, I'm not sure an Estonian would ever say they're attending a gala — that sounds funny in my opinion," said Urve Pirso, head of the Language Committee of the Mother Tongue Society.

:lol:

This is what I'd wear if I went to a gala.

:lol:
It's a formal gala, though. You've got to dress fancier than that! Like this:
► Show Spoiler

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Naava » 2023-06-17, 14:50

Linguaphile wrote:It's a formal gala, though. You've got to dress fancier than that!

If Lady Gaga can wear a dress made of actual meat, I can have my fishflops. 🙄

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Re: Eesti keele kohvik / Estonian language café

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-06-18, 0:56

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:It's a formal gala, though. You've got to dress fancier than that!

If Lady Gaga can wear a dress made of actual meat, I can have my fishflops. 🙄

Very true! :silly:
(Besides, for all we know, that lady in my second photo is wearing fishflops under her, uh, tail fin.)


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