Eesti muusika / Estonian music

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Linguaphile
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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-02-23, 18:24


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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby aaakknu » 2020-03-11, 6:38

Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2019

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-04, 15:18

Trad. Attack! ja Vaiko Eplik - Armasta mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOTkBGb9EGM

Trad. Attack! - Lelľo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6nrHrZw6hQ

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-04-19, 18:04

Antsud - Ennustus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EQd7iwbtDA

Sinu lugu, minu muusika.
Sinu nägu, minu hääl.
Enda kaitsel püsin vaikselt ma
Peos on helmed, meeles kee.

Põllud mustad, mustad rästad ka.
Valged killud, peod sinised.
Sulle kingiks lahked sõnad
Need toon ära kõik, mis südamel.

Tähed taevas, mustad varjud maas
Valged killud, sinised.
Ära pelga! Sa pole üksinda!
Varsti kohtume! On ennustus see.

Sinu lugu, minu muusika.
Sinu huuled minu suul.
Enda südamesse sisse ma
Lasen vaikselt su veel.

Päike taevas, pilvitu on see.
Vaatan kilde, mis sinised.
Sulle kingituseks enda ma,
Tuua luban ma kord veel.

Tähed taevas, mustad varjud maas
Valged killud, sinised.
Ära pelga - sa pole üksinda!
Varsti kohtume - on ennustus see.

Ära pelga! Sa pole üksinda!
Varsti kohtume! On ennustus see.
Ära pelga! Sa pole üksinda!
Varsti kohtume! On ennustus see.

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-08-28, 21:54

Marik Kalkun - Elukoor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8sk1XgpEzk

► Show Spoiler

► Show Spoiler

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby hajoseszter » 2020-11-05, 13:40

Hi, please provide me lyrics and translation of this one: Õhtu ilu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t69VIr5HCQ

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-05, 15:45

hajoseszter wrote:Hi, please provide me lyrics and translation of this one: Õhtu ilu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t69VIr5HCQ


► Show Spoiler


► Show Spoiler


Hiiumaa, Muhu, and Harju are placenames. It seems to be a song to be sung while travelling (the second stanza is, at least).
The song is in an archaic dialect, so the translation is approximate. Also, it is meant to be sung by two people or a lead singer and a choir. In this version, the singer sings the lead singer's part and portions of the other part, but since she is only one singer, she has to take a breath sometimes and this means that parts of the choir's part are missing. In other words when she repeats the lines the second part is incomplete, ie:

Teeme õhtulla iluda, teeme õhtulla iluda,
Päivä mennessa menuda... mennessa menuda
Ilu kuulub Hiiumaale, ilu kuulub... maale
Menu meie maa rajale, menu meie ...jale
Meie Hiiumaa kuused kumavad, meie Hiiumaa kuus...mavad
and so on.

Here is a different version of this song, in which the portions of the second line are not left out. Traditionally one singer would sing the first line, then the choir would join in at the end of that line and then repeat the line. Neither of these versions do it that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOQK0inm9KQ

► Show Spoiler


► Show Spoiler


Here is yet another version of this type of song, in Võro (Southern Estonian): here.

I will look later at the questions you posted on the Uralic forum.

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby ainurakne » 2020-11-05, 16:02

hajoseszter wrote:Hi, please provide me lyrics and translation of this one: Õhtu ilu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t69VIr5HCQ
I couldn't find the exact lyrics, but I found variations of it. It's a runic song, supposedly originating from Kuusalu, Kolga.

A short version containing only parts of what was presented in the song:
► Show Spoiler

A longer version, deviating from the version that was presented in the song:
► Show Spoiler

My attempt at writing down the lyrics as I heard them:
► Show Spoiler

Maybe someone else is brave enough to actually try and translate it.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-05, 18:31

Differences between Ainurakne's version and mine:

ainurakne wrote:Õe hella hõiskamisest

Õe is proper standard Estonian; ue is Kuusalu dialect. (Ainurakne, I see that some of the versions you posted do have ue, so hopefully this means I wasn't too far off.) It's actually rather hard for me to tell which they are saying in this version to be honest, but for singing, either works.

ainurakne wrote:Meie neidiste iluksi

Yes, thank you, my "neidista" was incorrect.

ainurakne wrote:Meie teeme teel iluda
Teel iluda maal mõnuda

Thank you, somehow I missed the l's there in my version.

ainurakne wrote:Metsa kõrge puu kõvada

I hear kõmada. It is easier to hear in the second part when she repeats it as "metsa kõrge... mada".
I translated it here as "thunder," but I'm not sure. It seems that kõma = (1) kõmin (a sound, like a boom, thunder or a buzz) and (2) kumu, kuulujutt (a rumor). The latter (rumor) didn't make sense to me at first, but after thinking over the last three lines of the song, maybe it does after all? It is indeed difficult to translate.

Anyway I am revising my version below, to include the correct lines with "teel" and "maal", "neidiste" and a line that was somehow missed in my translation. With the same caveat as before, that it is a bit difficult to translate so it's still an approximation.

► Show Spoiler


► Show Spoiler


ainurakne wrote:Maybe someone else is brave enough to actually try and translate it.

Heheh, foolhardy was more like it.

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby ainurakne » 2020-11-06, 15:29

Linguaphile wrote:Õe is proper standard Estonian; ue is Kuusalu dialect. (Ainurakne, I see that some of the versions you posted do have ue, so hopefully this means I wasn't too far off.) It's actually rather hard for me to tell which they are saying in this version to be honest, but for singing, either works.
I'm not 100% certain, but it sure sounds to me as if the singer is using standard Estonian õe.

Linguaphile wrote:I hear kõmada. It is easier to hear in the second part when she repeats it as "metsa kõrge... mada".
I translated it here as "thunder," but I'm not sure. It seems that kõma = (1) kõmin (a sound, like a boom, thunder or a buzz) and (2) kumu, kuulujutt (a rumor). The latter (rumor) didn't make sense to me at first, but after thinking over the last three lines of the song, maybe it does after all? It is indeed difficult to translate.
You are right.
I had a really hard time with parts of the second paragraph - eventually I just picked many of the words randomly, which felt like ones the singer might be saying, as the meaning didn't make much sense anyway.

I think of kõma/kõmin as a muffled or distant rumble (e.g. kõnekõma, jutukõmin, distant thunder) rather than a sharp bang or boom.

Linguaphile wrote:Meie neidiste iluksi
...
Our maidans become beautiful
Isn't this meant to be more like "for our maidens' sake"?

For the rest of the translation, I'm too uncertain to disagree with your interpretation. :lol:
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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-06, 15:39

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Meie neidiste iluksi
...
Our maidans become beautiful
Isn't this meant to be more like "for our maidens' sake"?

Makes sense! I struggled with that line. Not only did I have "neidiste" wrong in my transcription originally, I wasn't sure of the meaning of "iluksi" and just went with the basic meaning of "ilu" - I thought it might have been something related to translative case or conditional, but in dialect form. I don't think I've encountered this construction before. I'm happy to take your word for it. :mrgreen:

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Naava » 2020-11-06, 17:09

Sorry in advance if this sounds blunt or impolite, I'm in a rush but I just want to say a few words because I have some thoughts about this song but it seems I can never find the time to sit down. Anyway, I don't mean to come here like let me tell you How Things Are because I Know the Best. I certainly don't, and I'm actually not sure at all if I'm right or not! :mrgreen:

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Õe is proper standard Estonian; ue is Kuusalu dialect. (Ainurakne, I see that some of the versions you posted do have ue, so hopefully this means I wasn't too far off.) It's actually rather hard for me to tell which they are saying in this version to be honest, but for singing, either works.
I'm not 100% certain, but it sure sounds to me as if the singer is using standard Estonian õe.

I hear it as õe too. It sounds almost like ye to me, but certainly not ue.

A few other comments:
- I'm not sure if she's saying päivä or päevä. It's almost like somewhere in between.
- Isn't she singing "Menu meie maa rajale / Hiiumaa kuused kumavad" without "meie"? (Besides, the line wouldn't even work with meie because it'd have more than 8 syllables.)
- I also hear either haljendavad like ainurakne wrote it or, if there's a strong palatalisation instead of [j], then hallendavad. I'm not sure about this one though.
- Paar kui pardi poegisida - why do I hear this as poegasida? :hmm:

Also, are you sure ilu means beauty here?

I can see the album(?) name has been translated as Beauty of the Evening, but IMO 'joy' would make more sense in the song. Moreover, this seems to follow the same logic as Karelian/Finnish runes, where you always say something new in the first line and then repeat it with other words in the second line. Because of this, I thought the song begins with "let's be joyful in the evening, make joyful noise as the day/sun goes down". Likewise, I translated "ilu kuulub Hiiumaale" as "our joy(ful noise) is/can be heard in Hiiumaa", that they're making so much noise it carries all the way to Hiiumaa and people there can hear it. And the next line also has "sound" in it (see what I said about always repeating the same thing twice), and then it would make sense that the Hiiumaa and "our land's" trees reflect the noise the girls are making.

The line "meie neidiste iluksi" especially sounds to me like it should be "for the joy/entertainment of us girls" because in Finnish, "jonkun iloksi" means 'for someone; for someone's pleasure/joy/entertainment; in order to make someone happy/entertained'. (For example, I could say that the Christmas tree is brought in for the kids because they like it = lasten iloksi.) And lastly, "meie teeme teel iluda" - I thought it was "we're making joy(ful noises) on the road".

Anyway, I don't know this dialect though, so I could be so very wrong! :lol:

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby ainurakne » 2020-11-06, 20:27

Naava wrote:Anyway, I don't know this dialect though, so I could be so very wrong! :lol:
It sure makes a lot of sense, though. So I doubt you are wrong in any of the points you were making.

Naava wrote:Likewise, I translated "ilu kuulub Hiiumaale" as "our joy(ful noise) is/can be heard in Hiiumaa", that they're making so much noise it carries all the way to Hiiumaa and people there can hear it.
Yup, now that you mention it, kuulub here is indeed more likely equivalent to standard Estonian kuulduma/kostma, rather than to kuuluma (to belong).
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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-06, 20:35

ainurakne wrote:
Naava wrote:Anyway, I don't know this dialect though, so I could be so very wrong! :lol:
It sure makes a lot of sense, though. So I doubt you are wrong in any of the points you were making.

Naava wrote:Likewise, I translated "ilu kuulub Hiiumaale" as "our joy(ful noise) is/can be heard in Hiiumaa", that they're making so much noise it carries all the way to Hiiumaa and people there can hear it.
Yup, now that you mention it, kuulub here is indeed more likely equivalent to standard Estonian kuulduma/kostma, rather than to kuuluma (to belong).

I agree!

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-06, 22:05

Naava wrote:Sorry in advance if this sounds blunt or impolite, I'm in a rush

You really must have been in a rush if you thought you sounded impolite, because you don't at all. Honestly, i agree with nearly everything you wrote and even if I didn't, it wouldn't come off as impolite at all.

Naava wrote:Isn't she singing "Menu meie maa rajale / Hiiumaa kuused kumavad" without "meie"? (Besides, the line wouldn't even work with meie because it'd have more than 8 syllables.)

Yes, you are right! I must have been in a hurry too!

Naava wrote:I also hear either haljendavad like ainurakne wrote it or, if there's a strong palatalisation instead of [j], then hallendavad. I'm not sure about this one though.

That one was absolutely a typo on my part. I thought I had written the same as Ainurakne too. Didn't even notice until you pointed it out.

Naava wrote:Paar kui pardi poegisida - why do I hear this as poegasida? :hmm:

I think here (and with ue) I must have been influenced by the lyrics I'd found elsewhere. Ainurakne found some of them too. There are many versions of this song and I'd found a few other versions online, which had some of the same lyrics but not all - where I found lyrics that I thought matched, I just copied them here. And again, I didn't even notice that Ainurakne's as different from mine.

A note for Hajosezter: the reason we're having so much discussion over some of these things is because they are dialect forms and poetic forms, not standard language. In standard Estonian it has two forms: poegi and poegasid. :mrgreen:

Naava wrote:Also, are you sure ilu means beauty here?

I can see the album(?) name has been translated as Beauty of the Evening, but IMO 'joy' would make more sense in the song. Moreover, this seems to follow the same logic as Karelian/Finnish runes, where you always say something new in the first line and then repeat it with other words in the second line. Because of this, I thought the song begins with "let's be joyful in the evening, make joyful noise as the day/sun goes down". Likewise, I translated "ilu kuulub Hiiumaale" as "our joy(ful noise) is/can be heard in Hiiumaa", that they're making so much noise it carries all the way to Hiiumaa and people there can hear it. And the next line also has "sound" in it (see what I said about always repeating the same thing twice), and then it would make sense that the Hiiumaa and "our land's" trees reflect the noise the girls are making.

This 100% makes sense. Ilu in these old songs can be mean joy or beauty. I wasn't sure which to use but I have always seen the title translated as "Beauty of Evening" so that's why I went with that. Everything you wrote make sense.

Naava wrote:The line "meie neidiste iluksi" especially sounds to me like it should be "for the joy/entertainment of us girls" because in Finnish, "jonkun iloksi" means 'for someone; for someone's pleasure/joy/entertainment; in order to make someone happy/entertained'. (For example, I could say that the Christmas tree is brought in for the kids because they like it = lasten iloksi.)

This is good to know and makes sense. "Iluksi" in Estonian is a word that was unfamiliar to me so I just went with the meaning of "ilu" and thought it might have been a dialect-version of translative case. If what you described is how "iloksi" is used in Finnish, I'm almost certain it must be the same here. It makes sense and also Kuusalu isn't all that far from Finland, I think the Kuusalu dialect is closer to Finnish than many other dialects are.

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-06, 22:34

Also if either of you want to take a look at and comment or correct what I posted yesterday for this song that Eszter also asked for, please do! Suur Tamm

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby ainurakne » 2020-11-07, 7:50

Linguaphile wrote:..., I wasn't sure of the meaning of "iluksi" and just went with the basic meaning of "ilu" - I thought it might have been something related to translative case or conditional, but in dialect form. I don't think I've encountered this construction before.
Linguaphile wrote:"Iluksi" in Estonian is a word that was unfamiliar to me so I just went with the meaning of "ilu" and thought it might have been a dialect-version of translative case.
It is indeed translative case. Now, you may not hear kellegi iluks in standard Estonian (although there is silmailuks ~ for someone's viewing pleasure), but kellegi jaoks, kellegi heaks, kellegi rõõmuks, etc. are common.
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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby Linguaphile » 2020-11-07, 13:42

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:..., I wasn't sure of the meaning of "iluksi" and just went with the basic meaning of "ilu" - I thought it might have been something related to translative case or conditional, but in dialect form. I don't think I've encountered this construction before.
Linguaphile wrote:"Iluksi" in Estonian is a word that was unfamiliar to me so I just went with the meaning of "ilu" and thought it might have been a dialect-version of translative case.
It is indeed translative case. Now, you may not hear kellegi iluks in standard Estonian (although there is silmailuks ~ for someone's viewing pleasure), but kellegi jaoks, kellegi heaks, kellegi rõõmuks, etc. are common.

Now those I've heard! I didn't think of the similarities between them and iluksi but of course I see it now. Thanks!

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby hajoseszter » 2020-11-09, 13:43

Hi, I'm here, just needed time to think about and process all things...


Õhtu ilu (Tuule Kann, Jaak Sooäär)

Lyrics:
By listening to the song and comparing all the text versions you've added plus the discussions over it now the text looks like (if I'm right):
► Show Spoiler

I'm unsure about "päivä/päevä", how should I decide which one is "better"?
In "pardi" and "kõrge" I hear something between "r" and "d"/"g" (also little bit in "harju"), like a schwa or anything - why is that? What's the name of this phenomenon? I've heard this in many other songs in many languages.

Could you add punctuation marks to the lyrics?

It might be an old and/or dialectical song so I understand it's not easy to find the right words and to translate it...
BTW do you know which dialect is this?


Translation:
Please-please add a revised translation of how now it is. I've checked all the discussion about it and really appreciate all the nice footnotes, but a bit confused, too. :D

I could not speak the language, but I liked these choices:
Teeme õhtulla iluda: 'Let's be joyful in the evening'
Päivä/Päeva mennessa menuda: 'Make joyful noise as the day/sun goes down'
Ilu kuulub Hiiumaale: "Our joy(ful noise) is/can be heard in Hiiumaa'
Meie neidiste iluksi: "For the joy/entertainment of us girls"
Meie teeme teel iluda: "We're making joy(ful noises) on the road"

"kõmada": 'thunder' or 'muffled or distant rumble' would be better?


Performance:
As I see these kind of songs mostly performed by soloist and choir, or at least by two person. When this is sung by one person, some syllables are missing, as Linguaphile have mentioned, too - I thought it is in the style of their singing. I'm not sure if it is because of breathing, or not in all cases. Mari Kalkun and Maarja Nuut also do this, and it seemed to me that they have enough air to sing the missing parts also but they did this on a reason which I don't know. Could it be a tradition to sing like this if you're singing it alone? /Should I follow this?/ (Or a performance of these kind of songs could not be traditional with one person at all? :D)


I've got so so many other questions, though. :D
(I'm collecting songs for a performance and working on so many lyrics at the same time...)
Thank you very much!

Eszter

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Re: Eesti muusika / Estonian music

Postby hajoseszter » 2020-11-09, 14:44

Here's this Veere, veere päevakene sung by Maarja Nuut:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48LIVdXOARk

Finally I've found lyrics and translation on a picture of the booklet:
Lyrics:
► Show Spoiler

Translation:
► Show Spoiler


In the video's comments there's another translation (and another lyrics which is a bit different - the booklet version is better of the lyrics, I suppose):
► Show Spoiler


Why are there so many differencies? Could you help me which choices are better to understand more the song?

About the performance I've wrote before: Maarja here sometimes whispers the "missing" parts (or even sing it). It should be sung like this or it is her (and some other singers) style? I would not like to copy it without knowing why. :)

Eszter


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