Difference between "omastav" and "osastav&quo

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Patrick88
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Difference between "omastav" and "osastav&quo

Postby Patrick88 » 2007-07-17, 8:55

I know omastav is used for possession, etc. and the osastav is used for things like after numerals, but they both seem to be used as direct object cases... :shock: ...can anyone give a relatively concise statement as to when to use each? Most stuff that I find is very brief, and not very helpful. Even worse, sometimes the sources conflict with each other :lol: ...At this point, the distinction between these seems to me to be one of the more complicated points of Estonian grammar (and that's saying a lot- almost all the points of Estonian grammar are complicated! :) )

suur tänu :)

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Loiks
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Postby Loiks » 2007-07-17, 14:52

I tried to translate from Eesti Keele Käsiraamat.

The cases of total object.

The total object in plural is always in nominative Viisin lapsed lasteaeda 'I took the children to kindergarten'. The total object in singular is in nominative or genitive.

The total object is in nominative:

1. if the verb is impersonal Raamat pandi riiulile tagasi 'The book was put back onto the shelf.' Meil soovitati võtta teine raamat. 'We were suggested to take another book.'

2. if the verb indicates command Anna võti siia! 'Give [me] the key! Võti siia (anda)! 'The key!' Ma palun/käsin teid võti siia anda! 'I ask/order you to give [me] the key! Andnud siis võti siia! 'You should have given [me] the key! Lubage teha vaheaeg. 'Permit [me] to take a brake.

Note 1. If indicative is used to indicate command the total object is exceptionally in genitive Teeme vaheaja! 'Let's take a brake!' Te lõpetate otsekohe vasturääkimise! 'You will stop arguing at once! Compare: Tehkem vaheaeg! Lõpetage otsekohe vasturääkimine!

Note 2. If total object goes with -da infinitive of the words käskima and paluma it is always in nominative only by direct command, if the command is referred it can be both in nominative and genitive Palun näidata talle istekoht kätte. 'Please show him his seat. (command) Ma palusin näidata talle istekoht/istekoha kätte. 'I asked to show him his seat. (referred command)

3. if the object goes with -da infinitive which is

a) subject Minu ülesandeks on lahendada see küsimus 'My task is to solve this problem.'

b) predicative Armastada isamaad on täita oma kohus rahva ees. 'To love your fatherland is to fulfill your duty to your nation.'

c) attribute Jaak astus poodi kavatsusega osta ülikond. Jaak stepped in to the shop with intention to buy a suit.'

d) with verbs like kõlbab, maksab, sobib, tarvitseb, tuleb, õnnestub, läheb korda etc. Teil tuleb laud ära koristada. 'You have to clean the table.'

On other occasions the total object in singular is in genitive Ostsin endale uue pintsaku. 'I bought a new jacket for me.' Kuidas te julgete tõmmata meie vahele võrdusmärgi? 'How dare you put an equal sign between us?' Pean kirjutama sõbrale kirja. 'I must write a letter to my friend.'

Total and partial object

The object in partitive case is partial object, in nominative or genitive case total object. Some transitive verbs only allow partial object to be used. meenutama (Ma meenutasin minevikku 'I remembered the past.'), armastama, kallistama, liigutama, puudutama, huvitama, aimama. Those verbs are called partitive verbs. Other transitive verbs allow both total and partial object to be used. tekitama (Meie saabumine tekitas segadust/segaduse) 'Our arrival caused a mess.'), parandama, saavutama, koostama, kutsuma, varuma. Those verbs are aspect verbs.

Total and partial object vary only in affirmative sentences, in negative sentences there is partial object Ma ostsin leiva/leiba. 'I bought bread.' -- Ma ei ostnud leiba. 'I didn't buy bread.' Only if the construction mitte ... vaid is used the object remains total Ta ostis suvila. 'He bought a cottage.' -- Ta ei ostnud mitte suvila, vaid paadi. 'He didn't buy a cottage but a boat.'

Total object is used if the action is completed or will be completed in the future (perfect or resultative), the object itself indicates a full entity (a thing or amount). Partial object is used if at least one of those conditions do not apply, i.e if the action is not completed but currently happening and/or it indicates undefined amount.

Total object:

Ma ehitasin endale suvila. - I built a cottage for me.
Juku ostis endale riided. - Juku bought clothes for himself.
Ta sõi supi ära. - He ate the soup.

Partial object:

Ma ehitasin endale suvilat. - I was building a cottage for me.
Juku ostis endale uusi riideid. - Juku was buying new clothes for himself. or Juku bought some new clothes for himself. or Juku was buying some new clothes for himself.
Ta sõi suppi. - He was eating soup. or He ate some soup. or He was eating some soup.

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Postby JoshMcD » 2007-07-17, 22:32

Loiks wrote:I tried to translate from Eesti Keele Käsiraamat.

The cases of total object.

The total object in plural is always in nominative Viisin lapsed lasteaeda 'I took the children to kindergarten'. The total object in singular is in nominative or genitive.

The total object is in nominative:

1. if the verb is impersonal Raamat pandi riiulile tagasi 'The book was put back onto the shelf.' Meil soovitati võtta teine raamat. 'We were suggested to take another book.'

2. if the verb indicates command Anna võti siia! 'Give [me] the key! Võti siia (anda)! 'The key!' Ma palun/käsin teid võti siia anda! 'I ask/order you to give [me] the key! Andnud siis võti siia! 'You should have given [me] the key! Lubage teha vaheaeg. 'Permit [me] to take a brake.

Note 1. If indicative is used to indicate command the total object is exceptionally in genitive Teeme vaheaja! 'Let's take a brake!' Te lõpetate otsekohe vasturääkimise! 'You will stop arguing at once! Compare: Tehkem vaheaeg! Lõpetage otsekohe vasturääkimine!

Note 2. If total object goes with -da infinitive of the words käskima and paluma it is always in nominative only by direct command, if the command is referred it can be both in nominative and genitive Palun näidata talle istekoht kätte. 'Please show him his seat. (command) Ma palusin näidata talle istekoht/istekoha kätte. 'I asked to show him his seat. (referred command)

3. if the object goes with -da infinitive which is

a) subject Minu ülesandeks on lahendada see küsimus 'My task is to solve this problem.'

b) predicative Armastada isamaad on täita oma kohus rahva ees. 'To love your fatherland is to fulfill your duty to your nation.'

c) attribute Jaak astus poodi kavatsusega osta ülikond. Jaak stepped in to the shop with intention to buy a suit.'

d) with verbs like kõlbab, maksab, sobib, tarvitseb, tuleb, õnnestub, läheb korda etc. Teil tuleb laud ära koristada. 'You have to clean the table.'

On other occasions the total object in singular is in genitive Ostsin endale uue pintsaku. 'I bought a new jacket for me.' Kuidas te julgete tõmmata meie vahele võrdusmärgi? 'How dare you put an equal sign between us?' Pean kirjutama sõbrale kirja. 'I must write a letter to my friend.'

Total and partial object

The object in partitive case is partial object, in nominative or genitive case total object. Some transitive verbs only allow partial object to be used. meenutama (Ma meenutasin minevikku 'I remembered the past.'), armastama, kallistama, liigutama, puudutama, huvitama, aimama. Those verbs are called partitive verbs. Other transitive verbs allow both total and partial object to be used. tekitama (Meie saabumine tekitas segadust/segaduse) 'Our arrival caused a mess.'), parandama, saavutama, koostama, kutsuma, varuma. Those verbs are aspect verbs.

Total and partial object vary only in affirmative sentences, in negative sentences there is partial object Ma ostsin leiva/leiba. 'I bought bread.' -- Ma ei ostnud leiba. 'I didn't buy bread.' Only if the construction mitte ... vaid is used the object remains total Ta ostis suvila. 'He bought a cottage.' -- Ta ei ostnud mitte suvila, vaid paadi. 'He didn't buy a cottage but a boat.'

Total object is used if the action is completed or will be completed in the future (perfect or resultative), the object itself indicates a full entity (a thing or amount). Partial object is used if at least one of those conditions do not apply, i.e if the action is not completed but currently happening and/or it indicates undefined amount.

Total object:

Ma ehitasin endale suvila. - I built a cottage for me.
Juku ostis endale riided. - Juku bought clothes for himself.
Ta sõi supi ära. - He ate the soup.

Partial object:

Ma ehitasin endale suvilat. - I was building a cottage for me.
Juku ostis endale uusi riideid. - Juku was buying new clothes for himself. or Juku bought some new clothes for himself. or Juku was buying some new clothes for himself.
Ta sõi suppi. - He was eating soup. or He ate some soup. or He was eating some soup.


What he said lol

Patrick88
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Postby Patrick88 » 2007-07-18, 6:39

haha indeed :D Thanks, Loiks, that does clarify a lot for me. My only remaining question is this: is there any way to tell which verbs are partitive-only and which take either case? Is there some (hopefully short :P ) list of the former?

Suur tänu!

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Loiks
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Postby Loiks » 2007-07-18, 7:52

I can't find any simpler explanation. Obviously as a native speaker I use some inside feeling that tells me what's right and what's wrong. Only practice can help I guess. The only foreigners that don't make any major mistakes with it are the Finns because the system is basically the same in Finnish. So don't worry if it goes wrong, you'll be understood anyway :).

And it took me half a day to make it! :evil: :)

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Postby JoshMcD » 2007-07-19, 20:06

man you are devoted.

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Re: Difference between "omastav" and "osastav

Postby Ada H. » 2007-07-30, 12:20

Patrick88 wrote:they both seem to be used as direct object cases


Partial object (in partitive case)
- The action is ongoing and/or the object denotes an indefinite amount (ma ehitan paati, ta sõi suppi)
- In negative sentences (ma ei ostnud leiba)
- With partitive verbs that allow only total object (meenutama, armastama, kallistama, liigutama, puudutama, huvitama, aimama)

Total object (in nominative or genitive case, or some would say it's really accusative that looks exactly like nom/gen) :)
- The action is completed or perfective; the object denotes a whole thing or a definite amount (ma ostsin paadi, ta sõi supi ära, nad said lapse)
- In negative sentences using the construction mitte... vaid...(ma ei ostnud mitte paadi vaid suvila)
Total object is in the nominative case 1) in plural (Viisin lapsed lasteaeda), 2) if the verb is in impersonal voice (Laps viidi lasteaeda), 3)if the verb is in the imperative mode (Vii laps lasteaeda!).

If the result of the action is temporary, both forms of objects are possible (anna mulle pliiats/anna mulle pliiatsit).


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