Infinitives ending in da and ma

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DaveL
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Infinitives ending in da and ma

Postby DaveL » 2007-07-14, 10:11

Tere

New guy here. This is a great forum for learning. This is the first of what will probably be a lot of dumb questions :D

Some verbs in the infinitve seem to be able to take =da as well as =ma endings. Can someone explain the differences and when you would use each ending.

Any help would be be great thanks.

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Postby Patrick88 » 2007-07-15, 7:54

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is at least partly the way it goes:

Generally, all verbs can take either the -ma or -da infinitives, although each has different uses. From what I've seen, the choice of either infinitive depends on which verb you use it with. For instance (I'll use the verb kasutama (kasutada): to use, since it seems pretty regular to me :) )

with tahtma, to want, you'd use the -da infinitive....as in "tahan kasutada" - "i want to use"
You'd also use this with võima (something like "may, be allowed"), saama (more in the sense of being physically able), and oskama ("know how..")
Then there are expressions that use the -da infinitive, like "aeg on kasutada" - "it's time to use" ...sorry if that sounds a little awful, I didn't think about the meaning of the word when i picked it :D
There are also verbs that take the -ma infinitive, for example
hakkama (to start) ... hakkan kasutama - I start to use
Pidama - pean kasutama - I must use
Jääma.... to stay, continue doing as in the title of one cheesy pop song i have, "sind otsima jään" which, as far as I know, means something like "still looking for you" ...there are others, and I hope an Estonian will save the day by naming those :D


PS - a little warning...sometimes, the "-da infinitive" of certain verbs doesn't actually end in -da :? for instance..the verb jooma, to drink, has the -da form juua ....again, all I can really do is provide a few examples from my memory, perhaps one of the Estonians here can explain it better. If you ever want a word synthesized on demand, however, http://www.filosoft.ee "süntesaator" is quite an excellent one, although all the terms are in Estonian. Another great resource, although in Estonian, is the "Õigekeelsussõnaraamat 2006," which lists the major forms of a word you look up, and also indicates ülipikk/overlong and palatalization... it can be found online here : http://www.eki.ee/dict/qs2006/


Well hope that helped :) It's a bit confusing to me too :P[/b]

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Postby Loiks » 2007-07-15, 8:11

Patrick88 explained it very well. I'm afraid you have to learn it separately for every verb :? . For comfort: Estonians themselves make mistakes quite often. The final essay of secondary school is one helluva pain in the arse for most of us :lol: . I'm really proud to have passed it with maximum points :).

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Postby DaveL » 2007-07-15, 10:12

Thanks that is really helpful. Wasnt sure if it conformed to set rules, or - as seems to be the case here - it doesnt conform to rules and you just have to learn it (English is probably the worst for that). At least with Estonian it is pronouced as it looks (another way in which English must be so hard to learn as there are often several ways of pronouncing the same combinations of letters!).

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Postby Loiks » 2007-07-15, 18:15

DaveL wrote:Thanks that is really helpful. Wasnt sure if it conformed to set rules, or - as seems to be the case here - it doesnt conform to rules and you just have to learn it (English is probably the worst for that). At least with Estonian it is pronouced as it looks (another way in which English must be so hard to learn as there are often several ways of pronouncing the same combinations of letters!).


Well, not every aspect of Estonian pronunciation is marked in spelling - making difference between second and third length degree and palatalization - you just have to know it.

I have always wondered how English or French speaking children learn to write :). As a foreigner you just learn every word with its pronunciation and spelling. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for those who use other alphabets...

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Postby JoshMcD » 2007-07-16, 1:29

[quote="Loiks
I have always wondered how English or French speaking children learn to write :). As a foreigner you just learn every word with its pronunciation and spelling. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for those who use other alphabets...[/quote]

Well, i suppose we are taught the same way you are. We start with basic vocabulary. With the most Basic sentence structure. IE: I ran to the store.

We learn the most basic Verbs, nouns, etc etc.

Of course we start with the Alphabet. A B C D E F G H I J K L M O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z. and how to pronounce each individual letter. English pnly gets complex later on.

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Postby Loiks » 2007-07-16, 7:27

The biggest problem for Estonian children learning to write is when to write letters doubled and when not. Then when you have learned this the most problematic areas are combined words (like: auto juht 'driver of a/the car' vs. autojuht 'cardriver') and where you put commas in a sentence. For many of my compatriots those rules remain undiscovered secrets for whole life :), especially now when in sms's, messengers, e-mails etc nobody bothers to write by rules.

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Postby JoshMcD » 2007-07-16, 13:55

Loiks I truly believe there are a few things that are leading to the demise of Spoken language.


These are:

1 SMS. For those of you that dont know. SMS - Short Message Service. (cell phone texting)

2. Email. ( not all email are bad. Just most)

3. Bubble Gum. Yes Bubble gum. In my opinion when you speak to someone you shouldnt have a big wad of goo in your mouth. You shouldnt be chomping away whilst trying to tell a story. It is annoying, and honestly rude.

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Postby Patrick88 » 2007-07-17, 6:11

Josh I agree especially with that last point :) ...
By the way, Loiks, Estonians really like to use commas a lot, don't they? I am amazed at the seemingly endless supply thereof when reading something in Estonian... :D

Anyway, on the initial topic about verbs, I have a little question about the inflected infinitives...
I know that there are forms like -mas , -mast, and -maks, and -mata ...I can take a guess at some meanings, but could you help me out a bit with how to use them?

Suur tänu :D

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Postby DaveL » 2007-07-17, 8:16

[quote="Loiks
I have always wondered how English or French speaking children learn to write . As a foreigner you just learn every word with its pronunciation and spelling. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for those who use other alphabets...[/quote

Well it is interesting watching a 5 year old Estonian learn to read and write English. Kids at that age learn so fast and just soak up knowledge. This little guy cam eto the UK 3 years ago and spoke not one word of English. He speaks Estonian to his Mum and our Estonian visitors and English with me and when he goes to school. He is now learning to read and write in English. Its going to to be interesting teaching him to read and write in Estonian next .....

I wish I could learn as quickly as he can.

Patrick88
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Postby Patrick88 » 2007-07-17, 8:51

DaveL wrote:[quote="Loiks
I have always wondered how English or French speaking children learn to write . As a foreigner you just learn every word with its pronunciation and spelling. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for those who use other alphabets...[/quote

Well it is interesting watching a 5 year old Estonian learn to read and write English. Kids at that age learn so fast and just soak up knowledge. This little guy cam eto the UK 3 years ago and spoke not one word of English. He speaks Estonian to his Mum and our Estonian visitors and English with me and when he goes to school. He is now learning to read and write in English. Its going to to be interesting teaching him to read and write in Estonian next .....

I wish I could learn as quickly as he can.

I share that wish :D Everyone who was at my high school who took Russian were envious of my friend Ilya, who had lived for a few years in Russia, then come to the US. He just learned English as if there was nothing to it :shock: ...when I first met him I thought he was just ethnically Russian... damn I wish I could be a dual (or more :D ) native speaker... :roll: I definitely envy that child you have described :D haha

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Postby Loiks » 2007-07-17, 15:22

Patrick88 wrote:Josh I agree especially with that last point :) ...
By the way, Loiks, Estonians really like to use commas a lot, don't they? I am amazed at the seemingly endless supply thereof when reading something in Estonian... :D

Anyway, on the initial topic about verbs, I have a little question about the inflected infinitives...
I know that there are forms like -mas , -mast, and -maks, and -mata ...I can take a guess at some meanings, but could you help me out a bit with how to use them?

Suur tänu :D


I would say you use them when you are like 'in doing something'. They are -ma infinitive + case ending.

Ma käisin söömas - I went eating.
Ma tulen söömast - I come from eating.
Nad läksid restorani, söömaks lõunat. - They went to restaurant to eat lunch. (-maks is rarely used in spoken language)
Mul jäi täna lõuna söömata. - I missed my lunch today.


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