Eesti keel - Maks

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maxcrylov
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Eesti keel - Maks

Postby maxcrylov » 2006-12-10, 21:49

So Estonian made me drop my Finnish :D
Here I'm gonna try some Estonian, for the first time of my life... *scared*

Next time... :)

And now - just some questions. Seriously, I really rely on you folks. You're so helpful and all. I'm most thankful...

This time it's about phonetics and a bit of grammar:

1. Judging from what I read, b, d and g are pronounced in Estonian in an unvoiced way. Does this mean that they're absolutely equal to p, t and k and can't be distinguished from each other?
By the way, judging from what I see myself, b, d and g are used almost exclusively in the borrowed words. Is that true?

2. I'm in trouble (as I expected) with three grades of vowels. Actually it's even worse than I thought. My textbook does not comment on this and since it's not indicated by the language itself where to use what (the second and the third grade are just the same in the written form - a doubled vowel) I'm totally in vague.
Is it THAT BAD if I go on speaking with two grades, as in Finnish or Hungarian?

3. Case forming. Not so much of a trouble but a point of interest.
Is there any rule in adding the vowel in genitive? Or it's random?

koer - koera
kapp - kapi
mees - mehe
perekond - perekonna
poeg - poja
poiss - poisi
õde - õe


It's not that difficult - I do not try to memorize. It's only repetive usage what makes you feel confident.
And here comes a bigger trouble: is there any link between genitive and accusative? Or technically one should memorize three case forms?
As for accusative, I don't see any rule... It drives me crazy... :evil:

Thanks :wink:
If you really want to hear about it...

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Re: Eesti keel - Maks

Postby Ada H. » 2006-12-13, 8:21

maxcrylov wrote:1. Judging from what I read, b, d and g are pronounced in Estonian in an unvoiced way. Does this mean that they're absolutely equal to p, t and k and can't be distinguished from each other?

Estonian g, b, d are pronounced approximately as Finnish k, p, t. Estonian k, p, t are pronounced sharper, about the same way as in Russian. Estonian kk, pp, tt are pronounced as in Finnish (3rd grade).
maxcrylov wrote:By the way, judging from what I see myself, b, d and g are used almost exclusively in the borrowed words. Is that true?

Only borrowed words begin with g, b, d (banaan, diivan, geograafia); in other positions these sounds may occur in "native" words too (taba, pada, nuga).
maxcrylov wrote:Is it THAT BAD if I go on speaking with two grades, as in Finnish or Hungarian?

You will be understood, I think. There is a dialect in North East Estonia where 2nd and 3rd grade are not distinguished either. You could try an Estonian speech synthecizer http://kiisu.eki.ee - type in the words in the uppermost box and click on "Lobise". At least in some phrases and sentences it "understands" the grade difference, even though it speaks with a strong Finnish accent :) Try word pairs like koolid - koolide, linnad - linnade etc.
maxcrylov wrote:Is there any rule in adding the vowel in genitive? Or it's random?

Knowing Finnish helps a bit with some words, because this vowel is the same one that has eroded from Estonian, compared to its Finnish cognates (but you have to omit the vowel harmony).
Finnish: poika, Estonian: poeg, poja
maxcrylov wrote:is there any link between genitive and accusative? Or technically one should memorize three case forms?

Not just three :) Effectively, you should memorize nominative, genitive, partitive and short illative in singular, plus genitive and partitive in plural...

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Postby maxcrylov » 2006-12-13, 15:37

Thanks a lot, Ada!

I had to notice that b,d and g indeed are met in original Estonian words. But the guess was right on the whole...

As for grades... Dunno, it's a bit discouraging. I can't see the way out.

And finally, the cases.
Er, I didn't expect so much to be memorized. Agglutinative languages tend to be a bit more logical...
Aren't all this forms except for accusative formed upon genitive? :(
If you really want to hear about it...



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Postby Loiks » 2006-12-13, 18:41

Hi!

You probably mean partitive by accusative, don't you?

About cases: (example word: Maks :))

Genitive sg. (Maksi, second grade) gives you:

1) all the other cases in sg. except nominative sg., partitive sg. and short illative (illative without -sse)
(Ill. Maksisse
Iness. Maksis
El. Maksist
All. Maksile
Adess. Maksil
Abl. Maksilt
Transl. Maksiks
Term. Maksini
Ess. Maksina
Abess. Maksita
Kom. Maksiga);
2) nominative pl.
(Maksid)

Partitive sg. (Maksi, third grade) gives you:

genitive pl.
(Makside)

Genitive pl. (Makside) gives you:

all the other cases in de-plural except nominative pl.
(Ill. Maksidesse
Iness. Maksides
El. Maksidest
All. Maksidele
Adess. Maksidel
Abl. Maksidelt
Transl. Maksideks
Term. Maksideni
Ess. Maksidena
Abess. Maksideta
Kom. Maksidega)

Partitive pl. (Makse) gives you:

the i-plural. (cannot be used with this particular word)

So you have to know following basic forms:

Nom. sg. Maks/käsi/maja
Gen. sg. Maksi/käe/maja
Part. sg. Maksi/kätt/maja
(Ill. sg. Maksi/kätte/majja)
Gen. pl. Makside/käte/majade
Part. pl. Makse, Maksisid/käsi/maju, majasid

Don't worry, for some cases even native speakers make mistakes!

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Postby Ada H. » 2006-12-14, 19:19

Loiks wrote:example word: Maks :)


But if you take maks ('tax'), it is
nom sg maks
gen sg maksu (2nd grade)
part sg maksu (3rd grade)
ill sg maksusse, maksu
nom pl maksud
gen pl maksude
part pl maksusid, makse

And for maks ('liver'):
nom sg maks
gen sg maksa (2nd grade)
part sg maksa (3rd grade)
ill sg maksasse, maksa
nom pl maksad
gen pl maksade
part pl maksasid, maksu

:)

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Postby maxcrylov » 2006-12-14, 22:13

Didn't know my name has such a meaning :D
Thanks Ada!

Loiks, you're terrific... :wink:
Oh crap, how I am to cope with all this...

Well, I won't stop. I've bet I'll speak it 8)

Folks, would you be so kind (I'm too imposing for a colonialist, ain't I? :D ) to explain the consonant changes in the root?
I know it's a peculiar Finno-Baltic thing, I've met it in Finnish. I'm just afraid that extrapolation from Finnish won't be that accurate for Estonian. And my textbook has no clarification. It happens like this:

Max (not Marx :twisted: ): Kapp - kapi... Where the hell did the last p go?!
Textbook: Try to guess fella :D
Max: Damnation! :evil: Would you make some explanations?
Textbook: Er... What?
Max: Argh...
If you really want to hear about it...



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Postby Ada H. » 2006-12-15, 21:51

maxcrylov wrote:Where the hell did the last p go?!

Well, it's this nasty Finno-Ugric (or even Uralic) thing called gradation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation The main rule is that there are no rules... Or, there are, but to explain why there is lagi : lae : lage but nagi : nagi : nagi you would have to know quite a bit of language history - not easier than just memorizing the basic forms.

http://csli-publications.stanford.edu/koskenniemi-festschrift/14-trosterud-uibo.pdf:

There are two principally different consonant gradation types in Estonian - qualitative and quantitative.
1) Qualitative changes
1a) deletion of a stop (g, b, d, k, t) or s (arg : ara, käskida : käsin, tuba : toa, uskuda : usun, mesi : mee)
1b) assimilation (kandma : kannan, vars : varre)
1c) replacement of a weak stop by rules b:v, d:j, g:j (kaebama : kaevata, rada : raja, märg : märja)
2) Quantitative changes
2a) alternation of long and short geminate (pikk : pika, sepp : sepa, võtta : võtan, kirss : kirsi)
2b) alternation of strong and weak stops (vilkuda : vilgub, kubjas : kupja, kartma : kardan)

Estonian differs from Finnish, where consonant gradation is a weakening (nouns: sg nom - strong grade, sg gen - weak grade; verbs: supine - strong grade, ind pres - weak grade) process only, in also having some noun inflection types with strengthening quantitative consonant gradation.
The strengthening consonant gradation types of nouns are the following:
a) nouns that derived from a verb with consonant gradation, e.g.: hinne : hinde (verb hindama - hinnata - hindan)
b) nouns that end with s and are in weak grade in singular nominative, but singular genitive is in strong grade and the final s is deleted, e.g , saabas : saapa
c) nouns that end with vowel + r (vaher : vahtra, tütar : tütre)
d) nouns that additionally to the gradating stem have stem final change e-me (liige : liikme, võti : võtme)

If you are seriously interested in more theory, try to fetch this: Estonian Language. Ed. by M. Erelt. Linguistica Uralica. Supplementary Series / Vol. 1. Tallinn: Estonian Academy Publishers, [2003]. 413 lk.

Good luck!

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Postby maxcrylov » 2006-12-19, 7:03

:shock: Wow, I say...
It's even more challenging :)

Thanks, Ada. Just hope it didn't take you TOO LONG explaining all these peculiarities.
I think it's better not to delve too deep into grammar complexities at this stage of learning. Just practising the changes.

Still, I was under impression that gradation has some stricter rules. At least my Finnish textbooks tend to give out a whole list of gradation variants.

Okay, folks, next time I'll try to write a short composition if you don't mind :)
If you really want to hear about it...



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Postby muhaha » 2006-12-26, 17:23

Ada H. wrote:
maxcrylov wrote:Where the hell did the last p go?!

Well, it's this nasty Finno-Ugric (or even Uralic) thing called gradation.


Is it really "Finno-Ugric" feature, instead of Balto-Finnic or Finno-Samic? The Nganasan gradation might be a separate change.

The main rule in Balto-Finnic languages is close syllable: weak grade, open syllable: strong grade (meaning the last syllable). This may not work in Estonian because of other sound changes.

Closed syllable ends in a consonant.

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Postby Loiks » 2006-12-27, 18:51

muhaha wrote:
Ada H. wrote:
maxcrylov wrote:Where the hell did the last p go?!

Well, it's this nasty Finno-Ugric (or even Uralic) thing called gradation.


Is it really "Finno-Ugric" feature, instead of Balto-Finnic or Finno-Samic? The Nganasan gradation might be a separate change.

The main rule in Balto-Finnic languages is close syllable: weak grade, open syllable: strong grade (meaning the last syllable). This may not work in Estonian because of other sound changes.

Closed syllable ends in a consonant.


It doesn't actually occur in all Balto-Finnic languages either: Livonian and Veps lack gradation. I guess very detailed explanations about how gradation has developped won't be appropriate in this topic right now :).

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Postby Levo » 2007-01-08, 12:54

Hmm, you made be to be curious. I am Hungarian. Here we must learn Hungarian grammar for 12 years at school and we also have to learn some Finnish words at grammar lessons and of course we learn Kalevala at grade 5th in primary school. But we haven't spoken too much about the origin of gradiation!
Now that I have already learnt some Finnish and a bit Estonian I can see that our: kő (kivi) when gradiates to köv- (követ - partitivus) than it is similar to the Estonian and Finnish word: kiv/kivi

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Postby Alcadras » 2007-01-08, 13:47

kivi means kiwi in turkish. :lol:

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Postby Ada H. » 2007-01-08, 17:33

Levo wrote:to learn some Finnish words at grammar lessons


This might be useful then: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Finno-Ugric_languages

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Postby maeng » 2007-01-09, 10:34

Levo wrote:Hmm, you made be to be curious. I am Hungarian. Here we must learn Hungarian grammar for 12 years at school and we also have to learn some Finnish words at grammar lessons and of course we learn Kalevala at grade 5th in primary school. But we haven't spoken too much about the origin of gradiation!
Now that I have already learnt some Finnish and a bit Estonian I can see that our: kő (kivi) when gradiates to köv- (követ - partitivus) than it is similar to the Estonian and Finnish word: kiv/kivi


Except that /v/ isn't part of the gradation in Finnic languages AFAIK so I don't think that the absence of v in the Hungarian counterpart has nothing to do with gradation at least not in the same sense as in Finnic languages. Etymologically they are derived from the same word, constructed form is *kiwe, so the form követ is easily explained with the help of this "underlying form" (sorry couldn't think of a more appropriate term) and I think many 2 syllabic words have shorten into 1 syllabic, so I think the absence of v in the Hungarian nominative of this particular word is more due to erosion than anything else. If someone knows better, feel free to correct me :)

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Postby Levo » 2007-01-09, 13:26

Ada H. wrote:
Levo wrote:to learn some Finnish words at grammar lessons


This might be useful then: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Finno-Ugric_languages


Thanks a lot! It is really useful. Though such boards only makes stronger the feeling in Hungarians that we are really weird alone with our language :(

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Postby Loiks » 2007-01-14, 12:21

Levo wrote:
Ada H. wrote:
Levo wrote:to learn some Finnish words at grammar lessons


This might be useful then: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Finno-Ugric_languages


Thanks a lot! It is really useful. Though such boards only makes stronger the feeling in Hungarians that we are really weird alone with our language :(


Yes, it's nice to have the Finns just on the other side of the Gulf.

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Postby Levo » 2007-01-14, 13:15

Yeah, we don't even know what is it like if one more or less understands a language without learning it.
Though when I learn Finnish I always realize some word by word coincidences and I remember when I talk to Finns and they commit a mistake in English I only smile as their mistake's word by word meaning makes sense in Hungarian :)

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Postby Loiks » 2007-01-14, 14:12

That's right. I've learned some Hungarian and I have a Hungarolingua grammar book. There are those structural similarities evidently. Usually people who don't have any clue about linguistics think that if languages are related to each other they must be mutually intelligible. So, many Estonians are very disappointed that they don't understand a word of Hungarian and refer to it like some kind of 'kögöš-mögöš'. :)

Then again both those living on the shores of Baltic Sea or those living on shores of the Danube we should also think about those who live in Russia and give them full support.

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Postby Levo » 2007-01-14, 15:29

Loiks wrote:refer to it like some kind of 'kögöš-mögöš'. :)


:D :D :D Cool. I have never heard it. At least someone has opinion.

Yeah, those inside the Russian bolder are decreasing :? Or loosing their language. But I have to have language relatives! The hanty and manyshi should survive too!

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Postby Levo » 2007-01-14, 15:36

I cannot stand not to learn Estonian, though I want Finnish too. Somehow I feel so simpathy towards Estonia that I feel I must learn the language. :)


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