Kloie's thread for questions

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ainurakne
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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-18, 17:37

Naava wrote:Is it true? I can see the käs- part looks like käsi, but where did the -ki- then come from? :|
I have no idea whether this is true or someone's wishful thinking, but it sure looks similar. :D

I know two parallel forms of this verb. I think in Standard Estonian, the first one is a lot more common:

käskima/käskida:
present: käsin, käsid, käsib, käsime, käsite, käsivad | ei käsi
past: käskisin, käskisid, käskis, käskisime, käskisite, käskisid | ei käskinud

käskma/kästa:
present: käsen, käsed, käseb, käseme, käsete, käsevad | ei käse
past: käsin, käsid, käsi, käsime, käsite, käsid | ei käs(k)nud
or: käsksin, käsksid, käskis, käsksime, käsksite, käsksid

Imperatives are:
käsi (2nd person s.) and käskige (2nd person pl.)
käse (2nd person s.) and käske :?: (2nd person pl.)
for the respective forms.
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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-18, 19:45

So... you have two forms, where the present tense of one form is identical with the past tense of the other form. Also, the past tense of käskima is identical with the conditional of Finnish käskeä. Time to twist my brain sideways! :partyhat: This is why I both love and hate learning Estonian.

How does the conditional work, then? Käsiksin & käseksin or what?

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-18, 21:03

Naava wrote:So... you have two forms, where the present tense of one form is identical with the past tense of the other form. Also, the past tense of käskima is identical with the conditional of Finnish käskeä. Time to twist my brain sideways! :partyhat: This is why I both love and hate learning Estonian.

How does the conditional work, then? Käsiksin & käseksin or what?

Yes, käsiksin and käseksin.
I didn't know of the käskma forms until seeing Ainurakne's post; even the Eesti keele süntesaator site doesn't know its conjugated forms. But I did find them here: http://www.digar.ee/archiving/ru/download/136434 (from 1926 "Keeleuuendus")... :!:
So it confirms Ainurakne's käske imperative (Ainurakne put :?: next to it). Doesn't mention the past tense form käsin for käskma though, only käsksin.

It says:
Mõlemad vormid lubatavad: (both forms are permitted)
käsin, käskima, käskinud, käskisin, käskida, käskige
käsen, käskma, käsknud, käsksin, kästa, käske

Vokaal kadu on võimalik ainult e-tüvelisest käskma (käsen).

And EKSS gives these forms for käskma:
kästa, käsen, käsksin, käskis, käsku, käskev, käsknud, kästakse, kästud

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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-18, 21:20

Linguaphile wrote:Vokaal kadu on võimalik ainult e-tüvelisest käskma (käsen).

Is there any reason why?

kästa, käsen, käsksin, käskis, käsku, käskev, käsknud, kästakse, kästud

Ok what forms are käsku, kästakse and kästud? I don't recognize these (or I'm not sure if they are what I think they are).

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-18, 22:38

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Vokaal kadu on võimalik ainult e-tüvelisest käskma (käsen).

Is there any reason why?

Probably, but I don't know what it is.... :twisted:
Seriously, I think it's just the way it ended up. My guess is it's just one of those things without an explanation. Not sure though!

Naava wrote:
kästa, käsen, käsksin, käskis, käsku, käskev, käsknud, kästakse, kästud

Ok what forms are käsku, kästakse and kästud? I don't recognize these (or I'm not sure if they are what I think they are).

käsku = third person imperative (jussive?) form of käskma. The equivalent for the verb käskima is käskigu.
kästakse = present impersonal form. Now to really mess with your mind, I have to tell you that I believe this form is the same for both käskma and käskima.
kästud = -tud participle, i.e. used for forming present perfect, past perfect, etc. Again, it's the same for both verbs. :?:

Now I have to say that I'm a little out of my element here but giving it a try. I don't use käskima much and hadn't heard käskma... or hadn't caught on to how it differed from käskima... until this thread. I'm just answering based on what I found online to try to learn it myself. I think it's the middle of the night now in Estonia (1:30am) but maybe Ainurakne can explain better or correct me later when it's a more reasonable hour over there. :)

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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-19, 8:37

käsku = käskeköön & jussive mood
kästakse = käsketään
kästud = käsketty

Linguaphile wrote:kästakse = present impersonal form.
:hmm: I thought it was called passive.

Linguaphile wrote:kästakse = present impersonal form. Now to really mess with your mind, I have to tell you that I believe this form is the same for both käskma and käskima.
kästud = -tud participle, i.e. used for forming present perfect, past perfect, etc. Again, it's the same for both verbs. :?:
Yes, I think these are the same for both verbs.

But probably because the two parallel forms are so fused together. Looking at käskima/käskida, I would say that the respective forms should be something like käsitakse (or käskitakse) and käsitud (or käskitud) - I can't decide which is correct, the parallel verb form is interfering too much. :roll:
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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-19, 9:07

Naava wrote:How does the conditional work, then? Käsiksin & käseksin or what?
I was always wondering (well, not always, only after I started learning Finnish) why is Estonian conditional -ksi and Finnish conditional -isi. Until I saw Proto-Finnic conjugation tables. :D

Let's take *tuldak, for example. It has two parallel conditional forms: *tulekci- and *tulici-. The first one is based on the present stem *tulek and the second one is based on the past stem *tuli, but both have the same conditional suffix -ci- appended to them.

:hmm: I wonder if they were once present and past conditional, or just parallel conditional forms that were used in different areas like different dialects.


:hmm: I'm also wondering, if this present tense -k was also once in the first and second person singular, something like *tulekmi(k) (for tulen) and *tulekti(k) (for tulet). At least it would give a nice symmetry for the singular - dual - plural triplet:
*tulekmi(k) - *tulekmek - *tulekmak
*tulekti(k) - *tulektek - *tulektak
:D

I once noticed from somewhere that the first person singular marker could have been -m (tulem) instead of -n (tulen), and before ti syllables became si, sinä was tinä. So, it would make sense that the personal pronouns (or their fragments) mi and ti were appended to the verbs and thus became personal markers, just like in case of mek/mak and tek/tak for dual/plural. And as the word-final -i seem to show the tendency to often disappear over time, this could have triggered the change into the current form.
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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-19, 9:49

Thanks to both of you! :)

Linguaphile wrote:Now I have to say that I'm a little out of my element here but giving it a try.

That's my motto. :mrgreen:

ainurakne wrote: :hmm: I wonder if they were once present and past conditional, or just parallel conditional forms that were used in different areas like different dialects.


:hmm: I'm also wondering, if this present tense -k was also once in the first and second person singular, something like *tulekmi(k) (for tulen) and *tulekti(k) (for tulet). At least it would give a nice symmetry for the singular - dual - plural triplet:
*tulekmi(k) - *tulekmek - *tulekmak
*tulekti(k) - *tulektek - *tulektak
:D

I can check my notes about the morphology when I'm home again. I have a lecture starting in an hour, so this needs to wait till evening.

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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-22, 1:19

What is maa pealt and maa seest?
Kas nad leidsid selle kivi maa pealt voi maa seest?!

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-22, 4:56

kloie wrote:What is maa pealt and maa seest?
Kas nad leidsid selle kivi maa pealt või maa seest?

Literally: Did they find this stone from on the earth/land or from inside the earth/land?
maa pealt = from on the earth/land, from on top the earth/land, from the surface of the earth/land
maa seest = from in the earth/land, from within the earth/land, from inside the earth/land
In more natural-sounding English it would probably be something more like "Did they find this stone on the ground or buried (underground)?"
I think it should also be correct to leave out the word "maa" the second time; it's understood that we're still talking about the land (maa) the second time even if the word isn't repeated:
Kas nad leidsid selle kivi maa pealt või seest?
"Did they find this stone on or under the ground?"

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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-25, 14:00

I'm reading from the colloquial Estonian book,and I see this sentence.
Ma helistan koju,aga enne ma ootan veel natuke.
What does it mean?

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-25, 15:13

kloie wrote:I'm reading from the colloquial Estonian book,and I see this sentence.
Ma helistan koju,aga enne ma ootan veel natuke.
What does it mean?

I'll call home, but first I'll wait a bit longer.
Literally: I call home, but before I wait yet a little.

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-04-30, 4:11

Naava wrote:(Btw ae for ä and oe for ö don't work really well; it's difficult to read words like otepaeaele. I suggest you get the Estonian keyboard or use ¨ + a to get ä, although I'm not sure if that works in English keyboard. If you can't use ä, ö or õ, I think it's best to go with a, o and o. The problem with this is that you might not learn them and end up pronouncing words incorrectly.)


ainurakne wrote:If all else fails, you can do as Estonians do when there is no Estonian keyboard available: use 2 in place of ä, 6 in place of õ and ö, and y in place of ü.


I feel silly for not having noticed this before, but then I remembered this thread and realized I must not be the only one, so I'll post the info: when you write a post on Unilang, underneath the text box it says "show virtual keyboard" and if you click on it and selection Latin/Roman, then you can click on the characters õöü and they will appear (as well as š ž and many others), making it unnecessary to install the Estonian keyboard or use keyboard shortcuts or or 2, 6, and y or cut-and-paste. However, unless I'm somehow missing it, it appears the list does not have ä (which is strange considering that it does have some letters that are used in fewer languages, such as ȁ and ǣ and ȑ and and ꙓ and ỹ). Nevertheless, I'm delighted by this discovery, and wanted to share.

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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby ainurakne » 2018-04-30, 8:55

Linguaphile wrote:However, unless I'm somehow missing it, it appears the list does not have ä (which is strange considering that it does have some letters that are used in fewer languages, such as ȁ and ǣ and ȑ and and ꙓ and ỹ).
Hmm, I can't find ä either. Neither under any of the selections nor in the extended views.

Maybe ä is so common on keyboards that nobody has been missing it. :lol:

I think there should be a separate section for "Diaeresis" with the existing dotted characters moved there from under the "Circumflex" section and the missing ones added.
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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-04-30, 13:12

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:However, unless I'm somehow missing it, it appears the list does not have ä (which is strange considering that it does have some letters that are used in fewer languages, such as ȁ and ǣ and ȑ and and ꙓ and ỹ).
Hmm, I can't find ä either. Neither under any of the selections nor in the extended views.

Maybe ä is so common on keyboards that nobody has been missing it. :lol:

I think there should be a separate section for "Diaeresis" with the existing dotted characters moved there from under the "Circumflex" section and the missing ones added.

I hadn't thought about others not missing it because they had it on their keyboards already; good point!
I found a thread where someone asked that x̂ be added and it was, so I asked about adding ä too. We'll see. I am happy about this find because usually, if I'm using a computer that doesn't have my multiple keyboards installed, I type the letters I need in Google Translate using the on-screen keyboard there and then cut and paste. This will be much easier.

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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-01, 13:30

Linguaphile wrote:
ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:However, unless I'm somehow missing it, it appears the list does not have ä (which is strange considering that it does have some letters that are used in fewer languages, such as ȁ and ǣ and ȑ and and ꙓ and ỹ).
Hmm, I can't find ä either. Neither under any of the selections nor in the extended views.

Maybe ä is so common on keyboards that nobody has been missing it. :lol:

I think there should be a separate section for "Diaeresis" with the existing dotted characters moved there from under the "Circumflex" section and the missing ones added.

I hadn't thought about others not missing it because they had it on their keyboards already; good point!
I found a thread where someone asked that x̂ be added and it was, so I asked about adding ä too. We'll see. I am happy about this find because usually, if I'm using a computer that doesn't have my multiple keyboards installed, I type the letters I need in Google Translate using the on-screen keyboard there and then cut and paste. This will be much easier.


Ää has been added, in a section called Umlauts and diaereses. They even added the Livonian letters ǟ ȭ ḑ ŗ (at the end of the list, under "others"), which I had asked about but didn't expect them to add. :D (I asked about those because most of the others were already there.) Very cool!

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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby ainurakne » 2018-05-01, 17:27

Linguaphile wrote:Ää has been added, in a section called Umlauts and diaereses. They even added the Livonian letters ǟ ȭ ḑ ŗ (at the end of the list, under "others"), which I had asked about but didn't expect them to add. :D (I asked about those because most of the others were already there.) Very cool!
Nice!

Not very likely that I would ever use them, but still nice to see things changing for the better in the world. :)
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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby ükssakslane » 2018-10-18, 15:11

Tere! Ma just leidsin selle lehekülg. Olen 19-aastane sakslane, kes juba 2015. aasta sügisest Eesti keelt õpib, aga kel ei ole keegi, millega võib rääkida. Vahepeal oskan juba peaaegu nagu Eesti kodanik rääkida.

Igatahes on mul põlev küsimus Eesti grammatika kohta, mida ma ikka veel lahendatud ei ole: Millal kasutakse -gi/-ki sufiks? See tähendab, sõnadel nn ongi, kuigi või midagi on ju selge, aga mis siis tähendab inimesedki? Eestigi?? Või hoopis Kaljulaidki?

-ki kasutan siiani alati tulevane verbina ("Are you going to repeat everything I say?" - Kas sa korraldadki, kõik, mis ütlen?) aga see kindlasti pole õige. Või on?...

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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby Prantsis » 2018-10-18, 19:48

ükssakslane wrote:Tere! Ma just leidsin selle lehekülje. Olen 19-aastane sakslane, kes juba 2015. aasta sügisest eesti keelt õpib, aga kel ei ole kedagi, kellega võiks rääkida (kel ei ole kellegagi rääkida). Vahepeal oskan juba peaaegu nagu Eesti kodanik rääkida.

Igatahes on mul põlev küsimus eesti grammatika kohta, mida ma ikka veel lahendanud ei ole: Millal kasutatakse -gi/-ki sufiksit? See tähendab, selliste sõnade nagu ongi, kuigi või midagi puhul on ju selge, aga mis siis tähendab inimesedki? Eestigi?? Või hoopis Kaljulaidki?
Tere!
-gi/-ki sufiks on enam-vähem nagu ka või isegi.
Nii ütleb Kaljulaidki. "Even Kaljulaid says so."

ükssakslane wrote:-ki kasutan siiani alati tunnusena tuleviku väljendamiseks ("Are you going to repeat everything I say?" - Kas sa kordadki kõik, mis ütlen?) aga see kindlasti pole õige. Või on?...
Ei ole.
Last edited by Prantsis on 2018-11-17, 8:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kloie's thread for questions

Postby ükssakslane » 2018-10-18, 20:07

Ui! Need on aga päris palju vigad kellelegi, kes kolm aastad eesti keelt õpib. Ma vist ei pannud tähele või pean rohkem õppida. No need olid ju ka väga ebatavalised laused, mida iga päev ei öelda.
Noh, harjutamine teeb meistriks, nagu Saksamaal öeldakse.

Siiski aitäh selle eest, et lahendasid minu kõige suurim küsimust Eesti keele kohta. :)

Kuidagi ma juba teadsin, et saksa sõna 'verb' tõlge polnud 'verb'. Õige sõna mulle sel hetkel pähe ei tulnud, ja ma olin liiga laisk, et vaadata minu eesti-saksa sõnaraamatusse.

Paistab, et ma pean veel õppida:

- millal on 'tud' ja millal on 'nud'
- millal on 'ma' ja millal on 'da'

See 't/d' nagu näiteks "unilang'it“ ajas mind ammu segadusse, kuni leidsin välja, et seda asendab "sind/mind."
Alles äsja leidsin ka välja see, et sõnal 'keda' on sama tähendus kui saksa keeles 'Jeder, den/die...'
Last edited by ükssakslane on 2018-10-18, 20:29, edited 1 time in total.


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