Palatization in Greek

[mind]

Is Ν always palatalised before all vowels pronounced as [e] or [i]? Is it palatalised in είναι, νεα, νοικοκιριό, νικώ?
Is ωί a diphtnong? Is πρωί pronounced with stress on ί or on ω?

[Psi-Lord]

Is Ν always palatalised before all vowels pronounced as [e] or [i]? Is it palatalised in είναι, νεα, νοικοκιριό, νικώ?

Mind, you can try and check http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grphdetl.htm#p_palatalization for some info on palatalisation (and maybe check the rest of the page and the website for other useful info).

Is ωί a diphtnong? Is πρωί pronounced with stress on ί or on ω?

Although I don't know how Greek grammars define a diphthong (I once had the impression they still use the term based on the ancient pronunciation, even if in the modern one it's a single vowel), I can say πρωί has two syllables, πρω + ί, with the stress on ι only. I'm not sure if this type of syllable is allowed in Greek, but for you to have that same word with a stress on ω, you'd spell it πρώι; it'd still have two syllables, though.

I have a question though: how do you get the infinitive of Greek verbs? Is it just the first person singular conjugation, like είμαι and έχω?

Yes, it's just the first person—Modern Greek doesn't have an infinitive the way e.g. English or French do.

[mind]

Mind, you can try and check http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grphdetl.htm#p_palatalization for some info on palatalisation (and maybe check the rest of the page and the website for other useful info).

That page has answered a lot of my questions. Ευχαριστώ, Ψι-Λορδ!

[ego]

Psi-Lord gave great answers .
Just one hint. Never palatalize the letter N. Some Greeks from some specific areas (e.g. Kyr's native town ) do it, but it sounds bad and it is not standard pronunciation for sure

[Psi-Lord]

Some Greeks from some specific areas (e.g. Kyr's native town ) do it, but it sounds bad and it is not standard pronunciation for sure

You guys should definitely write something about regional pronunciations of Greek sometime. Even if I know some variations are looked down on by native speakers, it'd be interesting to learn what exactly they are.

[mind]

Never palatalize the letter N

Really? Even, for example, in καληνήχτα? The sound examples both at the page given above and at http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/ch2/uph/use_phrases1.asp seem to palatalize Ν. The Russian coursebook I use is a bit vague on the topic, it says that Λ and Ν are palatalized when they are met before "catachresic diphthongs". No idea what they mean .

[ego]

Never palatalize the letter N

Really? Even, for example, in καληνήχτα? The sound examples both at the page given above and at http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/ch2/uph ... rases1.asp seem to palatalize Ν

In this site the pronunciation of the speakers is really perfect. Λ and N don't sound palatalized to me . A palatalized N would be like the Spanish Ñ and a palatalized Λ would be like the Spanish Ll. I don't think these are the sounds heard here.
Anyway the rule is never palatalize N and Λ no matter which sound follows or precedes.
Still palatalization is very intense in Greek. It is found in letters Κ, Χ, Γ when they are followed be /e/ (ε, αι) or /i/ (ι, η, υ, ει, οι, υι). As you can here in the above audio files their palatalization is much more intense than e.g. the palatalization of "c" in English "care".

Can someone point me to some trustworthy resources on handwriting? I'd like to practise on paper, but I'm not sure how the letters should look like and how they are supposed to be connected.

I will try to scan my own handwritings till friday

You guys should definitely write something about regional pronunciations of Greek sometime. Even if I know some variations are looked down on by native speakers, it'd be interesting to learn what exactly they are.

Psi-Lord I think referring to local dialects would rather confuse the learners right now. I will just tell you that the islands' dialects have very few vowels shiftings and many consonants' shiftings (especially even more intense palatalization - K sounds like the English "ch" in Crete and Cyprus), while the mainland dialects shift the vowels and don't touch the consonants. Still as I have told you the youth more and more speak with standard pronunciation everywhere but Cyprus. Besides most dialects have always been mutually intelligible

[Psi-Lord]

Psi-Lord I think referring to local dialects would rather confuse the learners right now.

Ah, sorry for not making myself clear—I was actually thinking of a general text for the Greek forum, and not necessarily for this beginners' thread.

[Kyr]

Anyway the rule is never palatalize N and Λ no matter which sound follows or precedes.

And why I strongly disagree?

mind is right, ν and λ are always palatilized before "catachrestic diphthongues" (that means something like "so called diphthongues" ; letter ι + any other vowel; these are the real modern greek diphthongues by the way.)

[Kyr]

the mainland dialects shift the vowels and don't touch the consonants.

At the south, we don't shift vowels...
Northern mainland dialects (as in ego's town ) shift them... people there also have the bad habit of swallowing up the vowels, creating sometimes terrible consonant clusters.
On the contrary, in southern dialects people in many cases add a vowel in a word.

[ego]

And why I strongly disagree?

Because you are from Kalamata!

Seriously, I think we both misunderstood CoBB's question. CoBB asked about the pronunciation of N and Λ in words like καληνύχτα. There's no palatalization there, I guess you agree on that.
But indeed BEFORE AN UNSTRESSED /i/ FOLLOWED BY ANOTHER VOWEL (/a, e, o, u/), N and Λ are USUALLY palatalized.
When the /i/ is not followed by another vowel or when stressed there is no palatalization.

Examples:

καληνύχτα is /kaliníxta/ (not palatalized)
ελιά is like Spanish "ellá" (palatalized)

Still as I already mentioned, before an /i/+vowel diphthong there's not always palatalization. And unfortunatelly there's no rule about when to palatalize and when not. You just need to memorize each word's pronunciation

Examples:

έννοια is pronounced énee-ah (no palatalization)
γκίνια is pronounced giña (palatalization)

I could give one rule though: When a word ends in N or Λ + /i/, and takes an -a in the plural, then the Ν and the Λ are always palatalized:

χιόνι (snow) --> χιόνια (snows) pron. /çóña/ (palatalized)

[ego]

Northern mainland dialects (as in ego's town ) shift them... people there also have the bad habit of swallowing up the vowels, creating sometimes terrible consonant clusters.

"Bad" habit? All dialects have the same value and beauty mister Kyriakos.. Thank God you are not a linguist! We swallow the vowels because ancient Aeolians also did it some 3,000 years ago and I wish we will keep on doing it to eternity.
And as an answer to your pride: I have a friend at the uni who comes from your region (Patra) who told me that every night before bed he makes exercises saying "li ni li ni li ni" over and over again so that he learns how to pronounce them without palatalization

[CoBB]

CoBB asked about the pronunciation of N and Λ in words like καληνύχτα.

You mean mind instead of me. Thanks to the magic quoting system.

[Kyr]

about the pronunciation of N and Λ in words like καληνύχτα. There's no palatalization there, I guess you agree on that.

yes, that is correct.

But indeed BEFORE AN UNSTRESSED /i/ FOLLOWED BY ANOTHER VOWEL (/a, e, o, u/), N and Λ are USUALLY palatalized.

true. i would say always in all the "demotic" words.

When the /i/ is not followed by another vowel or when stressed there is no palatalization.

yes.

Still as I already mentioned, before an /i/+vowel diphthong there's not always palatalization. And unfortunatelly there's no rule about when to palatalize and when not. You just need to memorize each word's pronunciation

Examples:

έννοια is pronounced énee-ah (no palatalization)
γκίνια is pronounced giña (palatalization)

the "ν" in έννοια is palatalized when this word means "care"; it is not when it means "meaning".
It's again the difference between demotic and katharevousa. Katharevousa words are not palatalized.

I could give one rule though: When a word ends in N or Λ + /i/, and takes an -a in the plural, then the Ν and the Λ are always palatalized:

χιόνι (snow) --> χιόνια (snows) pron. /çóña/ (palatalized)

nice.

[Psi-Lord]

When the /i/ is not followed by another vowel or when stressed there is no palatalization.

yes.

This is what it's mentioned down http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grphdetl.htm, isn't it? The author there, among other examples, mention Σόφια, Σοφία and Σοφιά, and says the first and the latter have two syllables, because of the palatalisation, but the second word has three syllables, and that the stressed [ i ] prevents palatalisation.

He also mentions some 'general rules' regarding lack of palatalisation:

Forced palatalization, however, includes several exceptions.

1. The case of a consonant+ριά results in no palatalization (hence ρι-ά produces two syllables). Examples: μακριά [ma-kri-`a] (= far away); γριά [γri-`a] (= old woman); etc.

2. Stylized, terminological, and obsolete words are generally not palatalized. Examples: διαγώνιος [ði-a-γ`o-ɲi-os] (= diagonal; notice that even the ending -νιος is read as two syllables, although of course ν cannot escape regular palatalization); διάλεξη [ði-`a-lε-(ks)i] (= lecture); βιολογία [vi-o-lo-ʝ`i-a] (= biology).

There are some plain exceptions: words that are very common, but where forced palatalization does not occur. Examples:

γυμνάσιο [ʝim-n`a-si-o] (not [ʝim-n`a-sço]) (= junior-high school)
δωμάτιο [ðo-m`a-ti-o] (not [ðo-m`a-tço]) (= room)
εμπόριο [εm-b`o-ri-o] (not [εm-b`o-rʝo]) (= trade)
κιβώτιο [ci-v`o-ti-o] (not [ci-v`o-tço] (= large box)
πιέζω [pi-`ε-zo] (not [pç`ε-zo]) (= I press)
τεράστιο [tε-r`a-sti-o] (not [tε-r`a-stço]) (= huge)

Of course, all these exceptions make it hard, if not downright impossible, to know how to pronounce a word given its written form. Native speakers of Greek probably think this is a problem for learners of the language, only. They'd think that once one knows Greek natively, one knows how to read properly (i.e., given the written form of a word, one knows how to pronounce it). They couldn't be more wrong! There are cases where the pronunciation is strictly ambiguous, even for native speakers.

Source: http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grphdetl.htm#p_palatalization

He then gives a list of word pairs in which one is palatalised and the other isn't.

If I'm not mistaken, the dictionary at http://www.komvos.edu.gr/dictionaries/dictonline/DictOnLineTri.htm disambiguates such words, but it's down right now, and so I can't confirm it.

[Kyr]

Psi Lord, these rules you mention are correct, especially the no1. I would add that usually syllables in -εια and -οια (and generally -ει-, -οι plus some other vowel) are not palatalized also...

But, there are mistakes in this site. For example, the words "φωνή", "πανί", "νυστάζω", "όνειρο", "ανοίγω" are NOT palatalized in standard greek, as ego has said (though many, as me, for example, sometimes palatalize them. But it seems that everybody thinks that his/her own pronunciation (or the one of his/her town or village) is the standard one...)

Words like δωμάτιο, εμπόριο, βιολογία etc are katharevousa words and therefore non palatalized.

By the way, this conversation about palatalization, reminded me how fun was to hear mr. Simitis (the former prime minister) pronouncing words like ποιότητα = quality (he palatalized it as "pçotita" , while it is not palatalized; it is "p-i-otita").

My suggestion for the beginners is to not bother about palatalization at all. Try to learn some grammar or vocabulary and forget about pronunciation for the moment. And if you want to pronounce a word avoid palatalization at all...

[ekalin]

I've split the discussion about palatization (or not) to this new topic, because it is certainly that beginners should not worry about.

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure if even the more advanced learners should really worry about that. Only if you want to have a perfect native-greek pronounciation, which will be very hard anyway if you are a foreigner. However, feel free to continue discussing this topic here.

[E}{pugnator]

Thank God ekalin!!! Psi-Lord is always interferring in discussions with advanced scholar-grammar-linguistics-existencial discussions

He barely starts learning a language and he wants to know and discuss deeply everything about the consonantic mutational phenomena that happens in the smallest group of the most obscure subgroup of a minor dialect of that language spoken inside the caves in the mountains of the North

That can be really annoying! At least for the Greek forum you solved the problem, ekalin, and I'll be forever thankful!

Sorry, Psi, I had to say that

[Psi-Lord]

You had to say that because your frustration with your own life might be too big to keep to yourself? Because, in case you haven't realised, I wasn't even the one who started the topic. Better keep your mouth shut when your opinion isn't asked, E}{pug. Besides, go mind your own life, for Christ's sake, and stop worrying about how other people learn whatever they want to learn, however they want to. You complain about me, you complain about Strigo (chat conversation is always talked about somewhere else, you should know), you complain about Pittsboy… If I want to discuss the consonantal shift of Egein's conlang or the disappearance of declensions in some old Sumerian dialect, I certainly will, and all you can do is either ignore it or stick your coments up your arse.

Sorry, E}{pug, I had to say that.

Excellent opportunity to use my 3666th post. Thanks for pointing that to me, you-know-who-you-are.

[E}{pugnator]

If I want to discuss the consonantal shift of Egein's conlang or the disappearance of declensions in some old Sumerian dialect, I certainly will, and all you can do is either ignore it or stick your coments up your arse.

Sorry, E}{pug, I had to say that.

Excellent opportunity to use my 3666th post. Thanks for pointing that to me, you-know-who-you-are.

As long as you keep those discussions away from beginner threads...

The Portuguese forum speaks for itself

And no, I'm not frustrated. I have never learnt as much as I do now before, even with so many things do in non-language freaky life . And Carlos is enjoying his Polish studies, go ask him why