Greek Cypriot dialect

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby KingHarvest » 2011-04-09, 3:16

meidei wrote:Yes it's κία, as in ακακία, the tree. I suppose one could argue that it's basically /akakia/ at the phonemic level and it comes out as [akacia]. But no one uses this, even ΛΚΝ uses its k-tilde which equals to IPA's [c]. Even though, [c] would be still a phoneme because it is constrastive in words like κακιά [kaca]. (can two syllables of the same word be used as a minimal pair, or should I find another word?)


κακιά [kaca] "evil woman" vs κακά [kaka] "evil things," surely?
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-09, 9:50

Ego, once again, this would take some proof for me to believe it. The method I used shows that the first consonant of μπόρω is /mb/, not /b/, /p/ or /mp/.

KH, κακιά and κακά are perfect. The whole category of adjectives ending in -κός (f. -κιά, n.p. -κά) can be used.
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-09, 13:15

meidei wrote:Ego, once again, this would take some proof for me to believe it. The method I used shows that the first consonant of μπόρω is /mb/, not /b/, /p/ or /mp/.


what method? the only method for this would be praat.org!

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-09, 14:00

It's called put your finger on your throat and see if your vocal cords vibrate :P
πο vs μπο: I feel the vibration earlier at the later.
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-09, 16:25

meidei wrote:It's called put your finger on your throat and see if your vocal cords vibrate :P
πο vs μπο: I feel the vibration earlier at the later.


If you study linguistics as you intend to, don't ever say such things in class :P Your finger cannot detect the time gap between stop release and voicing, it is a gap measured in milliseconds.

And anyway you are mixing things here. The question is not whether or not meidei can pronounce [b], obviously he can. The question is do Cypriots pronounce voiced stops in their speech and if yes, when? Recall that in the article I gave you, voiced stops were accepted in CyG but only phonetically, not phonemically.

And believe me, you would be surprised with the findings of a spectrogram. But we never record ourselves for a spectrogram, we need to record 'naive' speech

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-09, 19:58

I know that, but that's the best I can do now :P

I read the paper and somewhere she says that when /n/ cames before a stop, the stop assimilates for place of articulation to the stop, and the stop assimilates for voice to the nasal. And since nasals are voiced sounds, I can only draw the conclusion that /np/ assimilates to [mb], /nt/ to [n̪d] and /nk/ to [ŋg].
Another paper by Arvaniti, does indeed offer a chart without /bdg/ at all, but notes that
[stops] become fully voiced if they are preceded by a nasal (which in turn assimilates for place of articulation to the plosive).

(Journal of the International Phonetics Association (1999) 29 (2): 173-178)
So, to my understanding of her description plus my naive observations, voiced stops occur before nasals. So I can accept that μπορώ's deep phonetic structure is /mporo/ but it cames out as /mboro/. [bdg] are not phonemes in CyG, to that of course I agree. But they do occur, after a nasal.
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-09, 23:57

meidei wrote:A question: Do you think that Cypriot Greek contrasts [ptk] with [bdg]?
Given that /bdg/ are realized [mbndŋg], I was always under the impression that Cypriot Greek contrasts only between [ptk] [ph:th:kh:] and [mbndŋg] and that [bdg] are allophones of /ptk/. Some evidence on this is that loanwords like "video club" have unvoiced stops (viteo club) instead of prenasalized voiced (vindeo clumb)... and second language realization which systematically has unvoiced stops for non-nasalized voiced (like the people in my French classes, that pronounce /b/ as [p] or [mb] depending on the person).

Your observations?


I was referring to your initial question. I said that Cypriot does not contrast p,t,k/b,d,g. Stops do appear as voiced but I am not sure in which environments, I haven't read these articles. However, I can tell you that en boro in Cypriot sounds different than den boro in Standard, to me the former sounds like en poro. A comparison between CyG and StG spectrograms would be enlightening but I will leave this for your PhD thesis :)

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-10, 0:27

My bad, I thought you was saying that CyG was lacking voiced stops altogether ('cause you said something about /emporo/).
The difference you hear, couldn't it be that you are not listening to speakers that assimilate the nasal-stop both for voice and place of articulation at word boundaries? [ðenboro] and [ðemboro] are possible in StG, but CyG uses only the latter.
But you are right, we can't reach a conclusion here. I'll wait for my first phonology class at the uni.

Btw, another interesting paper by Arvaniti.
Linguistic practices in Cyprus and the emergence of Cypriot Standard Greek
I told my philologist cousin about that paper and she gone mad and said to me that I hate Greek and I want to make Cypriot dialect a language on its own and if we were ever to use the Dialect (any dialect, of any language) as our language we wouldn't grow as smart as the speakers of the Language :roll: Completely missing the point...
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-10, 16:17

We say 'den boro' in StG? I don't think so, I never heard it. Unless if someone speaks emphatically and emphasises each word separately.

About the article, unfortunately you will get many such reactions if you speak to Greeks and Greek-Cypriots, we are a nation ill of nationalism.
On the other hand many people in Cyprus at the mo, with the current president being one of them, try to promote the idea of a separate 'Cypriot nation' and suppress any notion of hellenic identity among Cypriots, so that's why some people may overreact

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-10, 16:54

I call urban legend. There's not anyone promoting a "Cypriot Nation", not even by the immature AKEL administration. It's just that people slowly realized that the Republic of Cyprus is a state on it's own and it will not be annexed by Greece or Turkey anytime soon, so it's time we deal with the mess without expecting much from 3rd parties. Enosis and Taksim are finally died in the hearts of the people and only extremists will support them (like E.LA.M. and it's T/C equivalent).
Oh, and that cousin of mine, she describes herself as a communist. So political stance ain't really the issue.
But she insists that speaking in a dialect 'caps' your cognitive abilities, since there's a limit on how much a dialect can be developed (even in optimal circumstances), while a language can evolve to fit people's needs. I can't even argue with her, because for me a language is a group of dialects.

PS. Yes, I guess den boro is a case of emphasizing the word boundaries.
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-11, 10:48

meidei wrote:I call urban legend. There's not anyone promoting a "Cypriot Nation", not even by the immature AKEL administration


I hope you are right. A friend of mine had to write a speech to be read in an AKEL gathering and they asked her to omit all words like hellenic, hellenization of Cyprus etc. As if it is not a historical fact that at some point Cyprus was hellenized.. anyway

Oh, and that cousin of mine, she describes herself as a communist


Only in Cyprus, Greece and Portugal people still suffer from this mental disease :(

But she insists that speaking in a dialect 'caps' your cognitive abilities, since there's a limit on how much a dialect can be developed (even in optimal circumstances), while a language can evolve to fit people's needs. I can't even argue with her, because for me a language is a group of dialects.


Not only that but what we call language now was once a dialect, in the case of Greek the Peloponnese dialect enriched with Constantinopolitan and Ionian elements. And I bet that these dialects back then were no more cultivated and rich than Cypriot is today. Probably the opposite holds. However, as I said the issue is political, or else why Cypriot should gain a language status and not Pontic or Cretan or Tsakonian? Because they represent no state. We have to think whether splitting a language into more than one will benefit us or not and then decide

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-11, 11:49

παρεμπιπτόντως στες ιστολογίες σου (πολλά δυνατόν μπλογκ), γράφεις το είντα/είνταλως με γιώτα. Εν με έψιλον-γιώτα γιε μου, εσού ένας μιάλλος Κυπριανιστής εν γίνεται να το γράφεις λάθος! :P
Πρόερχεται που την έκφρασην "τι είναι αυτά", είπα σου το τζιαι παλιά χαρκούμαι..

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-11, 11:55

AKEL is just stuck in the '30s. Cyprus politics need a progressive European left voice but AKEL is still haunted by Stalin's ghost. Pathetic.
And this kind of censorship, I do believe it exists. They are just immature. They have good intentions (reverse the division between the G/Cs and the T/Cs; not some "Cypriot Nation") but they don't know how to do it.

I said to her that what is today the Greek Language is an evolved form of a dialect that gained prestige and power due to real-life events. If Macedonia was the first region to gain it's 'Independence', dark Ls, vowel devoicing and να-σε-κάνω-κεφτεδάκια accusatives would be the standard. But she insists that there's a concrete entity that is the Language (in that case, Standard Modern Greek as taught in Greek schools) and dialects are some kind of branches that were derived afterwards.
Who can I blame? Her professor, dear Mr. Bambiniotis or these silly "language family trees" that are more harm that good?

Btw, Tsakonian, strictly speaking, isn't a different branch of Hellenic languages all together? I mean, every living modern dialect has its roots in Hellenistic Koine (and in turn, to Attic), except Tsakonian which originates from some Doric Koine. If anything, Tsakonian is the only dialect deserving to be called a language on purely linguistic criteria, but of course it's as you say, politics. It's common around the world. Nordic languages is an example of very similar πράματα-που-μιλιούνται that aren't considered dialects and on the other hand Chinese is a group of languages that are considered dialects.

---
Όσο για το ίντα, ακολουθώ την αρχήν του Τριανταφυλλίδη για την ετυμολογικήν αδιαφάνειαν, άρα απλογραφώ το. Άλλωστε η ορθογραφία εν ιστορική, όι ετυμολογική :P Παντού ίντα τζιαι ήντα βλέπεις.
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-11, 15:29

Βλέπεις ίντα γιατί κανείς εν τους είπεν πώς να το γράφουσιν γιε μου! Τέλος πάντων, εν εν κάτι σημαντικόν.

Με τον Μπαμπινιώτη πού διαφωνείς; Βλέπω ότι τον εγκαλείς κάθε τόσο. Πιστεύω ότι οι απόψεις του είναι οι περισσότερες σωστές

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-11, 15:48

Οι απόψεις του άμαν εν ανάμεσα σε άλλους γλωσσολόγους εν ΟΚ. Άμαν τον αφήκουν μόνον του εν που παρασύρεται. Ειδικά άμαν φκει στην τηλεόρασην. Ας πούμεν σε μιαν εκπομπήν ο παρουσιαστής έθελεν να φκάλει τα Αρχαία Ελληνικά το σημείον που πρέπει να πάμεν τζιαι ότι τωρά η γλώσσα εν ετοιμοθάνατη, τζιαι αντί να του πει όσα γράφει στα άρθρα του ακόμα τζιαι στες εφημερίδες, ότι η γλώσσα μια χαρά ένι ζωντανή τζιαι αλλάσει, υπάρχει τζιαι η αργκό υπάρχει τζιαι η επίσημη κλπ, επήεν με τα νερά του τζιαι εσιγοντάριζεν τον.
Ανάφεραν τον πριν απλά για να δείξω ότι η ανηψιά μου εν τζι έν καμιά άσχετη, έκαμεν γλωσσσολογίαν στο πανεπιστήμιον, αλλά βλέπει κάποια πράματα όπως τα βλέπει. Ο Μπαμπινιώτης έν σχετίζεται.

Όσον για το έν τους είπεν κανένας, ε τι να κάμουμεν. Εγιώ με αναλογίαν ί vs εί να εν 46 προς 1, εννά σεβαστώ το 46.
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-11, 16:11

Γλωσσολογία στην Ελλάδα δε διδάσκεται. Είναι μόνο ένα μάθημα στη Φιλοσοφική και έχω διαβάσει το βιβλίο, είναι απλά μια εισαγωγή, περισσότερο μια ιστορία της γλωσσολογικής επιστήμης, Σωσύρ κτλ. Δεν μπαίνουν καθόλου στο ψητό, να αναλύσουν δηλαδή τη γλώσσα.

meidei wrote:ο παρουσιαστής έθελεν να φκάλει τα Αρχαία Ελληνικά το σημείον που πρέπει να πάμεν


Εν εκατάλαβα :(

Παρεμπιπτόντως άνι κάμνω λάθη στα κυπριακά μου φιλ φρι ττου κκορέχτ μι :P

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-11, 16:37

ego wrote:Γλωσσολογία στην Ελλάδα δε διδάσκεται. Είναι μόνο ένα μάθημα στη Φιλοσοφική και έχω διαβάσει το βιβλίο, είναι απλά μια εισαγωγή, περισσότερο μια ιστορία της γλωσσολογικής επιστήμης, Σωσύρ κτλ. Δεν μπαίνουν καθόλου στο ψητό, να αναλύσουν δηλαδή τη γλώσσα.

meidei wrote:ο παρουσιαστής έθελεν να φκάλει τα Αρχαία Ελληνικά το σημείον που πρέπει να πάμεν


Εν εκατάλαβα :(

Παρεμπιπτόντως άνι κάμνω λάθη στα κυπριακά μου φιλ φρι ττου κκορέχτ μι :P


Ότι τάχα τα Νέα Ελληνικά εν παραφθορά τζιαι πρέπει να πάμεν πίσω στο αυθεντικό, δηλαδή τα αρχαία.

Πάντως είπεν μου ότι στο πανεπιστήμιον έκαμεν εκτός που θεωρητικήν γλωσσ, τζιαι φωνολογίαν τζιαι συγκριτικήν-ιστορικήν τζιαι κειμενογλωσσολογίαν. Υποχρεωτικά για τους κλασσικούς φιλόλογους.

Όσο για τα λάθη, το μόνον που μου εχτύπησεν εν το "γιε μου" :P
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-12, 12:19

Έκαμεν φωνολογίαν της αρχαίας ελληνικής. Εν κάτι τέλεια διαφορετικόν που τούτον που λαλούμεν φωνολογία δαμαί τζι αυτόν που κάμνω εγιώ. Άνταν λαλώ φωνολογία εννοώ την μελέτην των φωνολογικών διαδικασιών τζιαι φαινομένων διαγλωσσικά, εν τζι εννοώ περιγραφήν των ήχων της αρχαίας ελληνικής ή άλλης συγκεκριμένης γλώσσας. Η απόδειξη ότι γλωσσολογία εν διδάσκεται στην Ελλάδα εν ότι οι Έλληνες φοιτητές στα μεταπτυχιακά της γλωσσολογίας δαμαί εν τέλεια χαμένοι.

Του λλόου σου πού σκέφτεσαι να σπουδάσεις; Ελπίζω όι Ελλάδαν-Κύπρον

Όσο για τα λάθη, το μόνον που μου εχτύπησεν εν το "γιε μου"


Αφού περνώ σε 13 χρόνια ρε Δημητράκη! Αν ήμασταν τσιγγάνοι ήταν να μπορούσες κάλλιστα να είσαι γιος μου :lol:

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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby md0 » 2011-04-12, 12:47

Άνταν λαλείς; :D Πάει πολλύς τζιαιρός ν' ακούσω κάποιον να λαλεί "άνταν". :)

Του λόου μου... Ελλάδαν, σε κάποιον φιλολογίαν που έχει τμήμαν γλωσσολογίας. Έχελα να πάω κατά Γαλλίαν μερκάν για πτυχίον αλλά σκέφτουμαι τζιαι το πόσον ιμπόρει να αντέξει η πούγγα μου (όι ακριβώς "μου, αλλά το περι αντοχής ισχεί). Πκιο μετά εξωτερικόν, μεταπτυχιακόν.

ΥΓ. Σίριουσλι, το "Δημήτρη" εν εντάξει. Έχω έναν θέμαν με τα υποκοριστικά εντ δε λάικ :whistle:
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Re: Greek Cypriot dialect

Postby ego » 2011-04-12, 17:01

meidei wrote:Του λόου μου... Ελλάδαν, σε κάποιον φιλολογίαν που έχει τμήμαν γλωσσολογίας. Έχελα να πάω κατά Γαλλίαν μερκάν για πτυχίον αλλά σκέφτουμαι τζιαι το πόσον ιμπόρει να αντέξει η πούγγα μου (όι ακριβώς "μου, αλλά το περι αντοχής ισχεί). Πκιο μετά εξωτερικόν, μεταπτυχιακόν.


Μεν το κάμεις! Μεν το κάμεις αυτόν του εαυτού σου ειλικρινά. Εγιώ εσπούδασα τζιαι στην Ελλάδαν τζιαι έξω, καμία σχέση. Το επίπεδον των σπουδών στην Ελλάδαν εν πολλά χαμηλόν τζιαι οι συμπεριφορές εν πολλά διαφορετικές. Εχτός αν σε ενδιαφέρει η ελληνική φιλολογία. Αν όμως εν την γλωσσολογίαν που χέλεις να σπουάσεις (μου άρεσε αυτό το ρήμα χωρίς το δ :lol: ) φύε στο εξωτερικόν, κατά προτίμησην Αγγλίαν, Ολλαδδίαν ή Γερμανία. Για την Γαλλίαν ενι ξέρω πολλά παρ'όλο που χέλω τζι εγιώ να σπουδάσω τζιειαμαί του χρόνου, αλλά για μέναν εν να'ναι διδαχτορικόν οπότε εν πολλά διαφορετικά. Στην Γαλλίαν πάντως εν έσιει δίδαχτρα οπότε η διαφορά για την πούγγαν σου εν τζι εν να'ν μιάλλη, ειλικρινά.
Αν ήσουν έναν που τζιείνα τα μαννοχαρούμενα (είμαι και λεξιπλάστης στα κυπριακά) κοριτσούθκια που σπουδάζουσιν φιλολογίαν στην Αθήναν επειδή εν έσιει τίποττε άλλον να κάμουν στην ζωήν τους ώστι να'βρουσιν γαμπρόν ήταν να σου πω ΟΚ. Αλλά εσού έσιεις πολλά δυνατόν μυαλλόν τζιαι μπορείς να κάμεις σπουδαία πράγματα πα στην γλωσσολογία. Εννα απογοητευτείς πολλά που το επίπεδον των συφφοιτητών σου στην Ελλάδα. Εν πολλά σπάνιον να'βρεις μεταξύν τους κάποιον που σπουδάζει τούτον που σπουδάζει επειδή αγαπά το. Οι παραπάνω αδιαφορούν τέλεια. Αθθυμούμαι μιαν κορούαν που εσπούδαζεν Φιλολογίαν, με πόσον πάθος επεριέγραφεν μου τον άτιμον τον καθηγητήν της που εν αντράπηκεν να την κόψει απλά και μόνον επειδή έβαλεν ψιλήν πα στο άρθρον ο. Όι μόνον εν αντρέπουνταν να λαλεί ότι έκαμεν έτσι λάθος αλλά εκατηγορούσεν τζιαι τον γάρον τον καθηγητήν. Άσε που εν καταλάβουν τίποττε από τα αρχαία που μαθαίνουσι. Φίλη μου έδινεν τελευταίον μάθημαν αρχαία για το πτυχίον τζιαι λλίην ώραν πριχού να πάει να το δώσει εκάμαμεν επανάληψην μαζί. Είπα της να κλίνει τον πατέραν στα αρχαία τζιαι δεν ήξερεν! Ερώτησά την πώς ήταν να μεταφράσουμεν το "τω οίκω" στα νέα τζιαι εν είσιεν ιδέαν. Το κορυφαίον; Επέρασεν!!
Επαναλαββάνω βέβαια ότι αν εν η ελληνική φιλολογία που σε εδδιαφέρει τότε ΟΚ, εν έσιεις τζι άλλην επιλογήν (αν τζιαι στο Λοδδίνον έσιει σχολήν ελληνικών). Αλλά για την γλωσσολογίαν ξανασκέφτου το. Έλα δαμαί κάμε ΒΑ in Linguistics. Ή το ίδιον στην Ολλαδδίαν, εν πολλά πιο φτηνή τζιαι τα μαθήματα εν στα αγγλικά


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