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ego
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Postby ego » 2007-12-01, 20:02

HaggenKennedy wrote:
ego wrote:καταφέρνω is one of those verbs that never take internal augment. Another one is καταλαβαίνω

Indeed. I wonder why, though. Let us take a quick look at this:

Καταφέρνω > κατάφερα but
Καταφεύγω > κατέφυγα

Κατάσχω > Κατάσχεσα but
Κατατάσσω > κατέταξα


Funny, huh. There are also words that will admit both forms, like "καταστρέφω": both κατέστρεψα and the rarer form "κατάστρεψα" are allowed.

That's Greek alright. :wink:


Look who's here! I was wondering if you're still alive man. How's life going? I've finished the army, having exams in few days to enter the Philology School and in 2008 I'll move to the UK for work.

About the topic now:
I think that verbs which are very common and they came directly from ancient Greek with no interruption, lost the internal augment. Those which were lost and re-introduced in the modern times, retain it, or better, haven't lost it, although the omission of the internal augment is a most common "mistake" by natives.
However, in the example you provided, I think we say κατέσχεσα as well :hmm:
Sometimes I think that the internal augment will be one of the very first victims of the natural evolution of the language, along with the female words in -s, the genitive case.. that'd be an interesting discussion. Which you think that will be the elements that will disappear in the near future?

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Postby HaggenKennedy » 2007-12-03, 0:51

ego wrote:Look who's here! I was wondering if you're still alive man. How's life going?

I'm here. :D Life's well, thanks for asking. I've been quite busy but the semester is almost over (πάω νομική σχολή εδώ στο Σαουβαδόχ, στη Βραζιλία) and I can't wait for my vacations. :) How about you? You'll stop your studies στο Φιλολογικό να πας Λονδίνο;


ego wrote:About the topic now:
I think that verbs which are very common and they came directly from ancient Greek with no interruption, lost the internal augment. Those which were lost and re-introduced in the modern times, retain it, or better, haven't lost it, although the omission of the internal augment is a most common "mistake" by natives.

That's an interesting theory. But I'm not sure it plays off. :-/ Words like "απογράφω" (απέγραψα), "κατακλύζω" (κατέκλυσα), "παρασύρω" (παρέσυρα), "παρατάξω" (παρέταξα) - and so many others - seem to break that rule. I think it probably has to do with simple everyday usage. I might be quite far off here, but (because I agree with you that the internal augment is most likely fated to disappear) I could take a wild shot and say that this is a phenomenom that has already been happening for quite some time. And Katharevoussa maybe tried to prevent it by using rules for the augment, resulting in a fractionary pattern. Which would explain why so many words have both forms: κατατρώω (κατέφαγα, κατάφαγα), καταθέτω (κατέθεσα, κατάθεσα), παρασέρνω (παρέσυρα, παράσυρα - see "παρασύρω" above), παραδίδω (παρέδωσα, παράδωσα) etc. In other words, this commonly happens in many languages: while grammarians make efforts to establish a more sophisticated rule for a morphological pattern, certain forms are already fossilized to most of the common folk. Years later, prescriptive grammar itself tends to accept those common-folk rules as well - especially when consecrated authors use those forms on their literary works.

But this is a far shot, just a guess. I'm not an expert in Katharevoussa, and you'd know it better than me.



ego wrote:Which you think that will be the elements that will disappear in the near future?

Good question. Have you noticed how genitive plural tends to be misused in certain cases? If I wanna say "a few friends called me, I'm going over to their place", I'd say "πάω σπίτι τους" (and not "σπίτι των"). Funny, huh. Judging from how the ablative, when it ceased to exist, was split into the dative, genitive and accusative; and how the dative, when it ceased to exist, was split into genitive and accusative, my guess would be that the genitive might somehow die and be replaced by accusative and nominative. But for a change of such magnitude to take place... it would be a hell of a reform. Nominal declensions are much more difficult to disappear now than they ever were in the past. It's weird how Slavic languages still display 6 or 7 cases. Maybe Greek would lose a few endings, like the final -s in female words, for example, like you said. Apart from that... I can think of a few things that might be less complicated, but they're more like things foreigners would have trouble with. Natives wouldn't really incur in these mistakes/simplifications. :)
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Postby lishaoxuan » 2007-12-04, 2:17


Thank you so much,ego.This is an awesome site. I listen some Greek radio every night now,though I hardly understands anything. :dunno:

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Postby ego » 2007-12-05, 13:44


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Postby Arcane » 2007-12-06, 0:19



That's a helpful explanation indeed. I'm even considering printing all the sections in a mini reference book for personal use. Unfortunately most grammars lack that approach. I tend to prefer old grammars (especially after buying an impotent Modern Greek 'grammar' written in 2006) but that's really good.

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Postby Arcane » 2008-02-06, 5:48


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Postby ego » 2008-02-16, 21:43


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Postby Arcane » 2008-05-21, 19:36

Two links that could be interesting and useful although they aren't directly language-related:

:arrow: Σαλάτα εποχής A blog about Greek politics presented in a very original way. It's purely subjective (of course) but it's definitely fun if you want to get an idea.

:arrow: Αρκάς Greek comics online. Great Balkan humour. It seems this guy is pretty popular here.

Image

:lol:

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Postby Arcane » 2008-06-01, 0:02

Click h e r e for exercises in Modern Greek and other languages. I just did the listening for 3rd level correctly and I'm as happy as a clam :D

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Re: Links collection

Postby Kenny » 2008-12-02, 22:40

I'm considering starting to learn Greek, any good links you guys care to share? As I really don't know anything about it, I'd need to start from scratch, so the first thing to do would be learning the script (both handwriting and block letters). Any advice on this?

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Re: Links collection

Postby KingHarvest » 2008-12-03, 0:14

Hand writing script doesn't really differ all that significantly from type. Are you planning on learning Ancient or Modern Greek?
Most men are rather stupid, and most of those who are not stupid are, consequently, rather vain.
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Re: Links collection

Postby Kenny » 2008-12-03, 10:54

Modern, as I might even get to use it someday soon :).

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Re: Links collection

Postby Arcane » 2008-12-03, 22:50

I guess this link would be the most appropriate. You shouldn't worry about the script, it's a matter of hours. The most important is to get the right textbook/grammar book with exercises (and key). You may waste a lot of your time otherwise. I recommend Τα νέα ελληνικά για ξένους. You can take a look at the links here and the resources on the main UniLang page.

If you're more interested in speaking & having an everyday conversation, then you should probably move on to Pimsleur or something similar.
Last edited by Arcane on 2008-12-18, 15:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Links collection

Postby Kenny » 2008-12-04, 0:01

I have already gotten hold of Pimsleur Greek thanks to a friend. Is it okay to use Pimsleur and other materials at the same time? I'm guessing yes, but I just need confirmation. :)

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Re: Links collection

Postby Ilayde » 2008-12-09, 12:17

Well, I used Pimsleur Greek (only the first part though, because the second one hadn't been released then), and I definitely recommend you to use other resources simultaneously. For one thing, Pimsleur is (at least according to me ;p) painfully slow and teaches very little vocabulary, comparing to the amount of time it takes to listen to all the lessons. But, of course, it depends on your learning preferences and so on... Additionaly, the sooner you get accustomed to the Greek script, the better! In the beginning I used exclusively Pimsleur, so the transition to reading and writing the script was troublesome - I simply had no idea how all the expressions learned from Pimsleur should be spelled, which was quite a hindrance in further learning.
Native and writing about [flag]pl[/flag] / Pretending to be fluent in: [flag]en[/flag] [flag]sv[/flag] / In love with [flag]fi[/flag]

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Re: Links collection

Postby Arcane » 2008-12-18, 15:22

Pimsleur can really get on your nerves, I totally agree. It sounds so phlegmatic that I wanted to smash my head in the wall. But it's very useful to get the pronunciation right in the beginning. Modern Greek has an easy one but French is a monster.

Also, Pimsleur should come with a book. Listening only is not the way indeed. Just don't demonize the Greek script, it's the easiest of all the things you'll have to go through.

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Re: Links collection

Postby Arcane » 2009-03-18, 0:29

Exercises in Modern Greek for beginners. Under ασκήσεις, all in pdf.

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Re: Links collection

Postby autodidascalia » 2010-05-20, 11:57

A treasure of MODERN GREEK learning and teaching materials:
http://www.uz-translations.net/?category=greek
all free and convenient.

Καλή επιτυχία στην μελέτη!

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Re: Links collection

Postby md0 » 2010-08-14, 11:57

:arrow: @orthographos
Short spelling lessons. Also gives an insight to what are commons mistakes the natives make.

:arrow: Nikos Sarantakos Home Page
Some pages are in English but the rest and the most interestingpart is in Greek.
Covers etymology, idioms, misuses of Greek, critic of Greek translations, language related urban legends and he puts some things straight (like debunking the arguments of polytonic zealots... god, it's 2010 and they are still around).
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"

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Re: Links collection

Postby Arcane » 2010-12-08, 23:09

VCE - Greek Exams and Exam Assessment Reports http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/lote/greek/exams.html


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