Questions about Greek

Moderator: Dark_Horse

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2013-12-20, 15:45

I think you can start here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_grammar
but you will have to buy some of the grammars published in English if you want t go deeper. Routledge's is good.

is read like kirii with two i's at the end or like kiri with a longer i?
Or does it depend on how fast/drunk the speaker is?

Conventionally, it's analysed as /i.i/, two separate vowels.
But the hiatus is not always audible, so it might sound almost like /i:/ at times.
It's more crucial to make the hiatus audible in words like ιοί and υιοί (plural of ιός, virus, and of υιός, son), which both sound like /i.i/.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2013-12-22, 13:05

Just a question out of curiosity. :D

In Romanian we have these expressions:

Nu am înțeles nicio iotă = I didn't understand a iota of it ( It didn't understand anything )

Nu are nicio noimă = It doesn't have a noima ( It's doesn't make sense )

Do you have these expressions in Greek and if yes then how do they look?
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
Michael
Posts: 7122
Joined: 2009-07-21, 3:07
Real Name: Mike
Gender: male
Location: Oak Park, IL
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Michael » 2013-12-22, 15:29

Not sure about the first one, but the second one totally has an equivalent in Greek: δε βγάζει νόημα.
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2013-12-22, 16:39

Nu am înțeles nicio iotă = I didn't understand a iota of it ( It didn't understand anything

This meaning isn't used in Greek. But:
We might say "she followed the rules till the very last iota" (ακολούθησε τους κανόνες μέχρι και το τελευταίο γιώτα) = she followed the rules throughly, in a strict literal sense.
(I suspect that's an anglicism though. More common expression is "μέχρι κεραίας" (not even missing a macron, the dash over long vowels in philological notation for Ancient Greek eg ᾱ, ῑ, ῡ). Curiously, both expression come from the same line in the Gospels:
ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἕως ἂν παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ, ἰῶτα ἓν ἢ μία κεραία οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται.
[...] not even an iota or a macron to be missed [...].
English people, and obviously also Romanians, preferred the iota part, Greeks until recently made a reference to the macron.
Nu are nicio noimă = It doesn't have a noima ( It's doesn't make sense

That one is used differently:
"that doesn't have noima" (δεν έχει νόημα) = it's pointless, there's no point to do it, no reason to do it
and as Mike said:
"that doesn't give out noima" (δεν βγάζει νόημα) = that doesn't make sense, it's illogical
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2013-12-22, 19:28

What's the difference between νομίζω and σκέπτομαι?

Could you give 2 examples for each of them.

Mporeis na mou dwseis duo paradeigmata. :blush:
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2013-12-22, 19:56

What's the difference between νομίζω and σκέπτομαι?

They are quite different. I don't think they have overlapping usages in daily usage. Maybe in more poetic contexts.
Btw, σκέπτομαι is more commonly pronounced and spelt: σκέφτομαι

Let's see:

1. Νομίζω ότι αύριο θα βρέξει (I think(/believe) that it's going to rain tomorrow)
2. Νομίζω ότι δεν πρέπει να πας εκεί (I believe that you shouldn't go there / I don't think that you should go there)

1. Να σκέφτεσαι και μετά να μιλάς (Think first, and then talk)
2. Σκέφτομαι να βάψω τους τοίχους μπλε (I am thinking of (/planning to/I reckon I will) painting the walls blue)
3. Για σκέψου πόσοι θα γλίτωναν αν φορούσαν ζώνες (Think(/Imagine) how many (more people) would survive if they wore seatbelts)
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2013-12-23, 13:28

What's the difference between αφήνω and ας?

Examples are welcomed :)
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
Michael
Posts: 7122
Joined: 2009-07-21, 3:07
Real Name: Mike
Gender: male
Location: Oak Park, IL
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Michael » 2013-12-23, 18:33

Αφήνω is a transitive verb meaning to leave, to let, and to allow (colloquially). Ας is a hortative particle derived from that verb, generally used with the first person plural to mean "let's". It can also be seen used with other verb forms, in which case it functions as part of a periphrastic optative, meaning "may" or "let"; in Spanish and Portuguese, its equivalent would be the "que + subjuntivo" construction.

Αφήνω τα παιδιά μου με τη γιαγιά προτού πάω στη δουλειά.
I leave my children with their grandmother before I go to work.
Η αγχωμένη μητέρα δεν άφησε το μικρό της να βγει αφού ο ήλιος είχε ήδη βασιλέψει.
The anguished mother didn't let her little boy go outside because the sun had already set.

Ας φτιάξουμε ένα νοστιμότατο πιάτο!
Let's cook up a delicious dish!
Ας αρχίσει ο αγώνας!
Let the games begin!
Ας μη χαθώ.
I hope I don't get lost ("May I not lose myself").

By the way, I know this is not the Romanian forum, but since Romanian is also a language of the Balkan Sprachbund, would it have an equivalent to the Greek ας? I'm curious.
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2013-12-23, 20:05

Aóristos wrote:By the way, I know this is not the Romanian forum, but since Romanian is also a language of the Balkan Sprachbund, would it have an equivalent to the Greek ας? I'm curious.
I can't recall anything similar.
We use the subjunctive in these cases.

Let's cook = Să gătim

Let the game begin = Să înceapă jocul

But can the Greek subjunctive replace that Ας?

It's funny, at first sight the Greek subjunctive is kind of the same as the Romanian one in usage:
Θέλω να πάω = Vreau plec
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2013-12-23, 20:23

Ας does take a verb in the subjunctive.
The subjunctive can express different meanings with the different particles like ας, να, όπως*, για να, όταν, αν, μην.

*όπως is obsolete in Greece's Standard Greek, but still used in Cyprus' Standard Greek.

Ας φάμε - Let's eat
Πρέπει να φάμε - We should eat
(Παρακαλώ όπως φάτε - I request that you eat)
Σας έφερα κάτι για να φάτε - I brought you something to eat / so you can eat
Όταν φάτε, ελάτε - When you eat (you are done eating), come
Αν μαγειρέψετε, θα φάτε - If you cook, you'll (be able to) eat
Μην φάτε, είναι χαλασμένο - Don't eat (that), it's bad (has gone bad)

You never use a Greek verb in the subjunctive without a particle. They don't stand alone.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2013-12-28, 22:09

Could you please give examples for βλέπω, κοιτάζω and δώ?

Sorry, but since Greek isn't a Romance language, I have no idea where to place vocabulary. :(
Most of my questions will be about vocabulary.

Also, is the use of diacritics obligatory? :mrgreen:
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2013-12-28, 22:26

Also, is the use of diacritics obligatory?

Depends. For formal uses, like education, work, journalism, signposting etc, yes. The stress mark and the tréma (on ϊ, ϋ) are obligatory.
But people will drop them on informal writing quite often. On Facebook and the like.

δώ

Δω is just the subjunctive form of βλέπω. It never stands alone, it needs a particle like να. Να δω, όταν δω, πριν δω etc
βλέπω, κοιτάζω

In short, βλέπω is passive "seeing", κοιτάζω is active "looking".
Their literal uses aren't so different, their extended uses is what is setting them apart:


Δεν βλέπω διέξοδο (I see no way out)
Κοιτάζω για μια διέξοδο (I look for a way out)
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2014-01-02, 17:25

Eftychia wrote:
Levente wrote:Όχι, όχι, μόνο θέλω να μάθω μόνο τις γλώσσες ευρωπαϊκές ευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες.

Το ακόλουθο επόμενο άτομο μπορεί να μιλήσει μόνο λίγα ελληνικά.

Ελπίζω που ότι αυτό ήταν καλό. :oops:
Διόρθωσα τα λάθη σου. Ελπίζω ότι οι διορθώσεις μου είναι σωστές.

Just a few questions:

How do I say:
The person after me
The person below me
The next person
The following person

At the μόνο θέλω part why can't I say θέλω μόνο?
Or is the second one simply too poetic?

Is the τις article absolutely necessary in μάθω τις ευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες?
If yes then why?

When can I use που and when can I use ότι?

How do I say Thanks in advice?

By the way Eftychia, thanks for the corrections. :)
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2014-01-02, 19:21

Half of the corrections Eftychia gave are actually wrong.

A natural way to phrase it
Όχι, θέλω να μάθω μόνο ευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες.

Το επόμενο άτομο μπορεί να μιλήσει μόνο λίγα ελληνικά.



Now, the questions:


The person after me
The person below me
The next person
The following person

Το άτομο μετά από εμένα
Το άτομο κάτω από εμένα
Το επόμενο άτομο
Το άτομο που ακολουθεί

I won't proclaim "το ακόλουθο άτομο" as completely wrong, but from my experience, we only use that phrase when we are going to state which would the next person/thing be. Eg, imagine this computer dialogue:
Η ακόλουθη λειτουργία δεν μπορεί να εκτελεστεί: μετακίνηση φακέλου Folder1 στον φάκελο Folder2. Δεν υπάρχει ελεύθερος χώρος
The following function could not be completed: moving Folder1 in Folder2. There's no free space.

At the μόνο θέλω part why can't I say θέλω μόνο?
Or is the second one simply too poetic?

You can absolutely say θέλω μόνο.
For me, it feels like the most natural way to phrase it is to infix the verb in the subjunctive though:
θέλω να μάθω μόνο το Χ. I just want to learn X. Emphasis on that you wish something, on "θέλω". So that's the natural focus you want to have)

Other word orders are more natural with different meanings:
να μάθω θέλω μόνο! I just want to learn! (You can't have a noun here. Emphasis on what you want to do, the verb in the subjunctive goes first)
να μάθω θέλω μόνο το Χ! that's not natural. You can use a pronoun though: Να το μάθω θέλω μόνο. Το here is the pronoun "it".

Similarly:
μόνο να μάθω θέλω! The only thing I want is to learn! (here, you emphasise "μόνο", that you only have this one wish)
Again, no noun possible, but you can use the pronoun that fits: μόνο να το μάθω θέλω.

Is the τις article absolutely necessary in μάθω τις ευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες?
If yes then why?

Νο, it isn't.
If you use the definite article, it implies that you want to learn all of them.
Example:
Η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση πρέπει να εκδίδει τους νόμους της στις ευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες - The European Union must issue their laws in the European languages (all the languages [of EU])
(clumsy example but you get the point)

Μου αρέσει να μαθαίνω ευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες - I like learning European languages (some of them, not necessarily all of them).

When can I use που and when can I use ότι?

Ότι introduces secondary clauses, so you use it when you have a subordinate clause. There's another conjunction of this type: πως.
Μου είπαν ότι αρρώστησες - They told me that you got sick.
Μου είπαν πως αρρώστησες - They told me that you got sick.
Like in English, you can drop them. It sounds informal:
Μου είπαν αρρώστησες - They told me you got sick.

Now, I need a Greek speaker from Greece to tell me if ότι and πως have any difference in nuance, because as a Cypriot, I use them as exact synonyms.

Now, που sounds like the pronoun που, so you need to spot that in your sentence. The conjunction που introduces a secondary clause that is the result or the consequence of the primary clause:

Ήταν τόσο σκοτεινά, που δεν έβλεπα Χριστό - It was so dark that I couldn't see anything.
Αυτό το κεφάλαιο είναι τόσο σημαντικό, που αν δεν το καταλάβεις θα κοπείς στις εξετάσεις - This chapter is so important, so/that if you don't understand it, you will certainly fail the exams.

And here's που the pronoun:
Αυτός είναι που με λήστεψε - That's the one who stole from me.

How do I say Thanks in advice?

There's a fixed phrase for "thanks in advance":
Ευχαριστώ εκ των προτέρων.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2014-01-02, 19:49

Thanks you very much, I appreciate it.

So can I say:
το ακόλουθο άτομο που μιλάει ισπανικά: and then I introduce him or something similar.

Or is it simply too forced?
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2014-01-02, 20:05

You could say that, but is indeed forced and clumsy.
It's a sentence structure you'd use in a computer dialogue as I said, where the text after the semi-colon will be provided by a variable. It's a "fill the blank to suit your current need" type of sentence structure.

You are better off saying: Το επόμενο άτομο που μιλά ισπανικά [είναι η Στέλλα]. The next person who speaks Greek [is Stella].

Just don't use the phrase "το ακόλουθο ..." if you don't have to. Just be able to recongise it when you spot it somewhere.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2014-01-02, 20:11

Just a question out of curiosity. :P

Is Paleologu a Greek name and does it mean something?

Because there are a few Romanians who have this family name.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7591
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2014-01-02, 20:28

Yes. Παλαιολόγος (genitive: Παλαιολόγου) is a Greek (Byzantine) surname.

Stems from the last royal family of Byzantium, but I wouldn't expect anyone bearing that name actually tracing their linage back to them. People can change their surname after all. (A Cypriot having it would probably not be related. Cypriots didn't have surnames until some 100 years ago, they used patronymics).
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Levike » 2014-01-05, 18:35

Could you please translate this in a very literay way. :doggy:

Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

modus.irrealis
Posts: 3677
Joined: 2007-10-04, 20:41
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Questions about Greek

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-01-07, 15:57

Together-with (the goddess) Athena and move (your) hand.

It's an Ancient Greek phrase though.


Return to “Greek (Ελληνικά)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron