Questions about Greek

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby dimos » 2016-02-04, 23:13

Elaine wrote:Σ' ευχαριστώ πολύ, Δημήτρη!

Τίποτα, φίλε Μπορα! (πού τονίζεται το όνομά σου, παρεμπιπτόντως; )

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Multiturquoise » 2016-02-16, 6:23

dimos wrote:
Elaine wrote:Σ' ευχαριστώ πολύ, Δημήτρη!

Τίποτα, φίλε Μπορα! (πού τονίζεται το όνομά σου, παρεμπιπτόντως; )


Μπορείς να με φωνάξεις Μπόρα.
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby dimos » 2016-02-16, 16:16

Έγινε, Μπόρα!

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby elvam2167 » 2017-05-01, 20:21

I have some questions regarding the following explanation.

"1. Ἡ διάθεσις τοῦ ῥήματος
αʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα φανερώνῃ ἐνέργειαν, λέγεται «ἐνεργητικόν ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα ἐνεργητικῆς διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ὁ Πέτρος ποτίζει τὰ ἄνθη του. Ἡ Φωτεινὴ ῥάπτει τὸ φόρεμά της.
βʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα φανερώνῃ πάθος, λέγεται «παθητικόν ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα παθητικῆς διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ὁ Δημήτριος ἐτιμωρήθη. Ἡ σανὶς ἐκόπη.
γʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα φανερώνῃ, ὅτι τὸ ὑποκείμενον, δηλαδὴ τὸ πρόσωπον, τὸ ζῶον ἢ τὸ πρᾶγμα ἐνεργεῖ, ἡ δὲ ἐνέργειά του ἐπιστρέφει εἰς τὸν ἴδιον, λέγεται «μέσον ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα μέσης διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ἡ Μαρία κτενίζεται. Ὁ Πατὴρ ἐνδύεται.
δʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα δὲν φανερώνῃ οὔτε ἐνέργειαν, οὔτε πάθος, ἀλλὰ ἁπλῶς μἰαν κατάστασιν οὐδετέραν, λέγεται «οὐδέτερον ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα οὐδετέρας διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ἡ θάλασσα ἡσυχάζει. Ὁ γάτος κοιμᾶται."

I understand active verb (ἐνεργητικόν ῥῆμα) and passive verb (παθητικόν ῥῆμα). But what do μέσον ῥῆμα and οὐδέτερον ῥῆμα mean? I am guessing the first means reflexive (Maria combed herself (as opposed to someone else) but the second completely confuses me. Finally, hy does each type of verb have two different endings? For example, the active verb can be called ἐνεργητικόν ῥῆμα» but also ῥῆμα ἐνεργητικῆς. Someone said it's because these are in the genitive, but would that not be οῦ for the singular and ῶν for the plural, since ρήμα is a neuter noun? I know that masculine and feminine nouns can have ῆς endings at times, but I have never seen this with a neuter.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby elvam2167 » 2017-05-01, 20:59

I thought that, in the section quoted, we were discussing the active and passive voice. But section 2 is called "Ἡ φωνὴ τοῦ ῥήματος". So I reread above the text with which I started this post, and now I am even more confused!

"Είς τὴν κλίσιν τῶν ῥημάτων διακρίνομεν τὰ ἑξῆς χαρακτηριστικά: 1. τὴν διάθεσιν , 2. τὴν φωνήν, 3. τὴν ἔγκλισιν, 4. τὸν χρόνον, 5. τὸν ἀριθμόν, καὶ 6. τὸ πρόσωπον.
Αὐτὰ τὰ ἓξ χαρακτηριστικὰ ὀνομάζονται «παρεπόμενα» τοῦ ῥήματος."

I understand everything except 1 and 2. In section 2, it says the following.

"2. Ἡ φωνὴ τοῦ ῥήματος
Παραδείγματα:
ἐγὼ διδάσκω - ἐγὼ διδάσκομαι
ἐγὼ γυμνάζω - ἐγὼ γυμνάζομαι
ἐγὼ θυσιάζω - ἐγὼ θυσιάζομαι
Ἐὰν προσέξωμεν τὴν κατάληξιν τῶν ἀνωτέρω ῥημάτων δυνάμεθα νὰ τὰ διαιρέσωμεν εἰς δύο κατηγορίας, τὰς ὁποίας ὀνομάζομεν «φωνάς».
Ἡ πρώτη κατηγορία περιλαμβάνει ὅσα ἔχουν κατάληξιν εἰς «ω» καὶ λέγεται «φωνὴ ἐνεργητική», π.χ. λέγω, κτυπῶ, δίδω.
Ἡ Δευτέρα κατηγορία περιλαμβάνει ὅσα ἔχουν κατάληξιν εἰς «μαι» καὶ λέγεται «φωνὴ παθητική», π.χ. διδάσκομαι, ἐκπαιδεύομαι."

What is the difference between α. and β. in 1 and the active and passive in 2?

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Dark_Horse » 2017-05-01, 23:36

Hello elvam2167! I'll do my best to help you. :)

elvam2167 wrote:I have some questions regarding the following explanation.

"1. Ἡ διάθεσις τοῦ ῥήματος
αʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα φανερώνῃ ἐνέργειαν, λέγεται «ἐνεργητικόν ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα ἐνεργητικῆς διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ὁ Πέτρος ποτίζει τὰ ἄνθη του. Ἡ Φωτεινὴ ῥάπτει τὸ φόρεμά της.
βʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα φανερώνῃ πάθος, λέγεται «παθητικόν ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα παθητικῆς διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ὁ Δημήτριος ἐτιμωρήθη. Ἡ σανὶς ἐκόπη.
γʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα φανερώνῃ, ὅτι τὸ ὑποκείμενον, δηλαδὴ τὸ πρόσωπον, τὸ ζῶον ἢ τὸ πρᾶγμα ἐνεργεῖ, ἡ δὲ ἐνέργειά του ἐπιστρέφει εἰς τὸν ἴδιον, λέγεται «μέσον ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα μέσης διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ἡ Μαρία κτενίζεται. Ὁ Πατὴρ ἐνδύεται.
δʹ. Ὅταν τὸ ῥῆμα δὲν φανερώνῃ οὔτε ἐνέργειαν, οὔτε πάθος, ἀλλὰ ἁπλῶς μἰαν κατάστασιν οὐδετέραν, λέγεται «οὐδέτερον ῥῆμα» ἢ «ῥῆμα οὐδετέρας διαθέσεως», π.χ. Ἡ θάλασσα ἡσυχάζει. Ὁ γάτος κοιμᾶται."

I understand active verb (ἐνεργητικόν ῥῆμα) and passive verb (παθητικόν ῥῆμα). But what do μέσον ῥῆμα and οὐδέτερον ῥῆμα mean? I am guessing the first means reflexive (Maria combed herself (as opposed to someone else) but the second completely confuses me. Finally, hy does each type of verb have two different endings? For example, the active verb can be called » but also . Someone said it's because these are in the genitive, but would that not be οῦ for the singular and ῶν for the plural, since ρήμα is a neuter noun? I know that masculine and feminine nouns can have ῆς endings at times, but I have never seen this with a neuter.

You are right, μέσον ῥῆμα can mean "reflexive" or "middle verb" (as opposed to "active" and "passive" verbs). Middle verbs indicate that the subject performs an action which returns to it. E.g. κτενίζομαι (= I comb myself).

Οὐδέτερον ῥῆμα means "neutral verb". A neutral verb means that the subject neither performs nor receives an action; it is just in a neutral state. A very common middle verb is κοιμοῦμαι-κοιμᾶμαι (= to sleep); when we sleep, we neither act nor we receive an action.

Now, as for your question about "ἐνεργητικόν ῥῆμα" and "ῥῆμα ἐνεργητικῆς": When we say "ῥῆμα ἐνεργητικῆς", the word "διαθέσεως" is implicit at the end. So, it would be "ῥῆμα ἐνεργητικῆς διαθέσεως" (= verb of the active diathesis). Thus, the feminine form of the adjective "ἐνεργητικὸς" is used (ἐνεργητικὴ) to match the implicit word "διαθέσεως", which is genitive singular of the feminine noun "διάθεσις" ("διάθεση" in Dimotiki).

elvam2167 wrote:I thought that, in the section quoted, we were discussing the active and passive voice. But section 2 is called "Ἡ φωνὴ τοῦ ῥήματος". So I reread above the text with which I started this post, and now I am even more confused!

"Είς τὴν κλίσιν τῶν ῥημάτων διακρίνομεν τὰ ἑξῆς χαρακτηριστικά: 1. τὴν διάθεσιν , 2. τὴν φωνήν, 3. τὴν ἔγκλισιν, 4. τὸν χρόνον, 5. τὸν ἀριθμόν, καὶ 6. τὸ πρόσωπον.
Αὐτὰ τὰ ἓξ χαρακτηριστικὰ ὀνομάζονται «παρεπόμενα» τοῦ ῥήματος."

I understand everything except 1 and 2. In section 2, it says the following.

"2. Ἡ φωνὴ τοῦ ῥήματος
Παραδείγματα:
ἐγὼ διδάσκω - ἐγὼ διδάσκομαι
ἐγὼ γυμνάζω - ἐγὼ γυμνάζομαι
ἐγὼ θυσιάζω - ἐγὼ θυσιάζομαι
Ἐὰν προσέξωμεν τὴν κατάληξιν τῶν ἀνωτέρω ῥημάτων δυνάμεθα νὰ τὰ διαιρέσωμεν εἰς δύο κατηγορίας, τὰς ὁποίας ὀνομάζομεν «φωνάς».
Ἡ πρώτη κατηγορία περιλαμβάνει ὅσα ἔχουν κατάληξιν εἰς «ω» καὶ λέγεται «φωνὴ ἐνεργητική», π.χ. λέγω, κτυπῶ, δίδω.
Ἡ Δευτέρα κατηγορία περιλαμβάνει ὅσα ἔχουν κατάληξιν εἰς «μαι» καὶ λέγεται «φωνὴ παθητική», π.χ. διδάσκομαι, ἐκπαιδεύομαι."

What is the difference between α. and β. in 1 and the active and passive in 2?

Unlike English, in Greek we don't only use voices to show where an action is directed at, but we also use diatheses. To my knowledge, there's not another term to properly describe this phenomenon in English other than the Greek word itself; so, I'm going to use the word "diathesis".

In fact, diatheses (διαθέσεις) are those that indicate whether the subject performs an action (active), receives an action (passive), performs an action which returns to it (middle) or is simply in a neutral state (neutral).
Consequently, diatheses play the role that voices play in English.

Now, in Greek, voices (φωναὶ) only indicate the ending of the verb, NOT where the action of the verb goes. There are only two voices, active (ἐνεργητικὴ) and passive (παθητική), because there are only two different endings that differentiate the verbs: for the active and -μαι for the passive voice.
Therefore, the only criterion to categorize verbs as active or passive, is their ending.

So, remember:
DIATHESIS → MEANING OF THE VERB
VOICE → ENDING OF THE VERB


Some examples from Dimotiki (the above rules are the same as in Katharevousa)

1. Το παιδί γράφει ένα γράμμα. = The child writes/is writing a letter.

The verb "γράφει" belongs to the active voice [= ἐνεργητικὴ φωνὴ] (because in the first person singular of the present indicative it ends in [γράφω]) and it also belongs to the active diathesis [= ἐνεργητικὴ διάθεσις] (because it indicates that the subject performs an action).

2. Ο μαθητής τιμωρήθηκε από το δάσκαλο. = The student was punished by the teacher.

The verb "τιμωρήθηκε" belongs to the passive voice [= παθητικὴ φωνὴ] (because in the first person singular of the present indicative it ends in -μαι [τιμωρούμαι]) and it also belongs to the passive diathesis [= παθητικὴ διάθεσις] (because it indicates that the subject receives an action).

3. Ο πατέρας μου ξυρίζεται κάθε μέρα. = My father shaves (impl. himself) every day.

The verb "ξυρίζεται" belongs to the passive voice [= παθητικὴ φωνὴ] (because in the first person singular of the present indicative it ends in -μαι [ξυρίζομαι]) and it also belongs to the middle diathesis [= μέση διάθεσις] (because it indicates that the subject performs an action which returns to it).

4. Βαριέμαι. = I am bored.

The verb "Βαριέμαι" belongs to the passive voice [= παθητικὴ φωνὴ] (because in the first person singular of the present indicative it ends in -μαι [βαριέμαι]) and it also belongs to the neutral diathesis [= οὐδετέρα διάθεσις] (because it indicates that the subject neither performs nor receives an action, but it is just in a neutral state).

Considering all this, we can easily come to the conclusion that the voice of a verb (φωνὴ) is fixed, because it is determined by its ending; but the diathesis of a verb (διάθεσις) can change depending on the context.
For example, let's take the third sentence "Ο πατέρας μου ξυρίζεται κάθε μέρα." = My father shaves every day.
Its verb (ξυρίζεται) is (as we already said) passive voice and middle diathesis.
Let us now change the sentence and rephrase it like this:
"Ο πατέρας μου ξυρίζεται κάθε μέρα από τον κουρέα." = My father gets shaved by the barber every day.
The verb "ξυρίζεται" has remained in the passive voice (because it still has the same ending as before), but now it no longer belongs to the middle diathesis; it now belongs to the passive diathesis, because it indicates that the subject receives an action from someone else ("the barber" hereto).

I hope I helped you and I didn't confuse you. If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask. :)
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby elvam2167 » 2017-05-02, 0:06

That was one of the best answers to any of my questions that I have ever seen on any site! Thank you! If I don't simply post the link to this thread, do I have your permission to repost your answer on other sites where I asked about this, in order to help other students?

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Dark_Horse » 2017-05-02, 0:17

Don't mention it! It was my pleasure. :D
Of course, you can repost my answer and use it however you want. :wink:
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby elvam2167 » 2017-06-04, 4:43

I am studying the second conjugation now. These are the words that take the perispomeni and have three different types (though the uncontracted forms are never written in Katharevousa). But I still have several unresolved issues regarding verbs in general. How can I remember all of the tenses and moods? The simple ones make sense, but the more complicated ones are difficult, especially because some of them are used differently in English. Each of these also exist in both the active voice (ἐνεργητικὴ φωνή) and the passive voice (παθητικὴ φωνή), so I essentially have to learn two sets. Some exist in different moods as well, so I must learn several of them! For example, both ἐνεστὸς and αόριστος contain ὀριστική, ὑποτακτική, προστακτική, and μετοχή. Plus, in many cases, words have both a first and second aorist, even in the same voice! Why is that? No one seems to know the answer to this question. These are the tenses and moods. I hope there aren't any more that I will need to learn. Can someone please give the English translation of each and a short example? I am just trying to memorise the meanings and not just the conjugations.

Ἐνεστώς, ὀριστική, ὑποτακτική, προστακτική, μετοχή, παρατατικός, μέλλων διαρκής, μέλλων στιγμιαῖος, ἀόριστος, Παρακείμενος, ὑπερσυντέλικος, καὶ τετελεσμένος Μέλλων.

This is the book that we are using, though my teacher is supplementing it with some materials from another book and had to add a few extra things, since, for some reason, Γιαννάκος seems to have excluded them! I'm not even going to ask about conditionals, which we should be starting next week, as that confuses me even more!

http://e-library.iep.edu.gr/iep/collect ... 112&tab=01

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby md0 » 2017-06-24, 18:51

Wow, northern Greece Greek goes undecipherable quick. Anyone can translate this for me?
19366402_1446460348754699_8821430031448894199_n.jpg

- ζέστα καν΄α;
και τι α κανς
α κάιτς να
στάιξ;

- έφκα για ντ΄πλαζ


Green is "I recognise the cognates and feel confident I understand the meaning", orange is "I suspect what the cognate might be but not the meaning", and red is "I have no idea".

So, it's something about the weather being hot, and wondering what to do. "What can you do, sit and ???" something. And the answer is "Go out and ???"
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby elvam2167 » 2017-06-28, 2:36

Can anyone please give me some information on the conditional (δυνητικὴ ἔγκλισις)? I would like some examples of its use so that I can practise. Please do not give answers in Ancient or Dimotiki, as they are different from Katharevousa and will only confuse me. Thank you.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Golden Breathing » 2017-08-20, 12:33

md0 wrote:Wow, northern Greece Greek goes undecipherable quick. Anyone can translate this for me?
19366402_1446460348754699_8821430031448894199_n.jpg
- ζέστα καν΄α;
και τι α κανς
α κάιτς να
στάιξ;

- έφκα για ντ΄πλαζ


Green is "I recognise the cognates and feel confident I understand the meaning", orange is "I suspect what the cognate might be but not the meaning", and red is "I have no idea".

So, it's something about the weather being hot, and wondering what to do. "What can you do, sit and ???" something. And the answer is "Go out and ???"


The first is accurately translated as "It is hot, eh?" with "α" playing the role of interjection. We have "α"-"αα", "αρά", "ε" and "ρα" as interjection in so-called "northern" Greek. It is actually Central Greek (Thessalian) NOT Northern Greek. Northern Greek is in Thessaloniki and Grevena. We don't have our idioms and their speech patterns. I speak Modern Standard but I lived both in Serres and in my city, Larissa. Serres' dialect is nothing alike.

The second phrase is accurately constructed as "και τι να κανς" NOT "και τι α κανς" and it is literally translated as "and what do to?". The third is definitely translated as "(good! stay to leak)" with "α" being an interjection determining "cynical/pessimistic acceptance" or roughly something of that particular manner. If I had to describe it in English I would had equate it with the word "Huh!", but it's still too distandly related in definition. The final phrase probably got the "την πλατεία" wrong. I have never heard "ντ' πλαζ" as a phrase in my life. The comedy sketch you posted doesn't quite wipe out its ignorance out of its way since it has few mistakes here and there as I clarified.

Athens is NOT Central Greece. I admit it right here that Athens is the SOUTH or NEAR-SOUTH GREECE to be more correct, and they view themselves the centre because it is a bragging convient lie. Crete is Far-South, at the borders.


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