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Woods wrote:Does anyone pronounce γ like I've always imagined it - as a voiced h, or is it more like a German r?
linguoboy wrote:Woods wrote:Does anyone pronounce γ like I've always imagined it - as a voiced h, or is it more like a German r?
The velar allophone is closest to a intervocalic /g/ in Spanish or Catalan, if you happen to know what that sounds like.
md0 wrote:Neither, really. It's a voiced velar fricative with a palatal allophone.
Woods wrote:md0 wrote:Neither, really. It's a voiced velar fricative with a palatal allophone.
Isn't that precisely what the standard German r is?
Maybe that "palatal allophone" is closer to what I mean?
But how does the majority of Greeks speak?
And by allophone you mean it depends on the speaker or it depends on the word?
TheStrayCat wrote:I'm not a Greek speaker but if this helps, the voiced velar fricative is essentially the voiced version of the Bulgarian /х/ sound (which in its turn is different from the English /h/).
TheStrayCat wrote:Wikipedia also says the voiced sound you're asking about can also occur in Bulgarian when /х/ is followed by certain voiced vowels as in видях го. Does it sound similar to you?
md0 wrote:The German R can be realised in many different ways so I'm not sure which pronunciation you have in mind. Most likely the uvular fricative [ʁ] (sound sample). It's close to the untrained ear, for sure, but a Greek speaker would perceive that as a speech impediment or foreign accent pronunciation for rho, not for gamma.
md0 wrote:I think what I wrote was misunderstood. The velar version of γ is indeed a voiced /x/, like the one found in Turkish, BCMS, and likely Bulgarian too.
As far as I know, the Greek γ and the Spanish fricative allophone of g are also the same sound.
Woods wrote:[md0 wrote:Neither, really. It's a voiced velar fricative with a palatal allophone.
Isn't that precisely what the standard German r is?
Woods wrote:And by allophone you mean it depends on the speaker or it depends on the word?
md0 wrote:To recap: There's no question that the Greek γ is a fricative - no more like an approximant.
linguoboy wrote:md0 wrote:To recap: There's no question that the Greek γ is a fricative - no more like an approximant.
Interesting. I've always been taught that the Spanish sound was approximant in contrast to the Greek sound, which represents a true fricative. (I've listened to enough Spanish that I can easily distinguish [ɣ̞] and [g], but I find distinguishing [ɣ] from [g] more challenging.)
md0 wrote:I honestly have nothing more to add that I didn't already say or was mentioned by the others. Please entertain the idea that maybe you just can't hear (...)
To recap: There's no question that the Greek γ is a fricative - no more like an approximant. (...) 🤔
Also, some offence is taken at the sample sentence. You always had the chance to look up and find a sentence that is not profane and addressed at the second person.
Woods wrote:Does anyone pronounce γ like I've always imagined it - as a voiced h, or is it more like a German r?
mōdgethanc wrote:To mine ears, as a filthy foreigner, these are all fairly different sounds. I don't get the confusion.
[ɣ] is like a weaker [ɡ] to me. [ʝ] is like a stronger [j]. Both allophones are quite different. [ʝ] can work as an allophone of [ɣ] because velar sounds often and easily get fronted to palatals. In some languages (Old English is one, and Swedish) this sound merges with /j/ as well.
[ɰ] is a weird sound that's like an unrounded [w] (which is indeed more or less what the Japanese /w/ is). But in Spanish, it's a symbol sometimes used to write the weaker allophone of /ɡ/, which is otherwise written [ɣ]. Side note: IMO this sound is rare because it's awkward to make and it's easily deleted (Korean technically has it but drops it all the time).
Here's a key thing however: with fricatives (especially dorsals or "back" ones like velar, uvular, and pharyngeal sounds) there is often ambiguity between a fricative and approximant. In Spanish, I've read the sound written [ɣ] is perhaps better written [ɰ]. But in European Portuguese and Catalan, the convention is to write [ɣ] for the "weak" allophone of /ɡ/. Are these really different sounds? Do speakers of European Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan notice this slight difference? Probably not I think. It's nitpicking to say the Greek [ɣ] is more strongly fricated. Maybe it is, I don't know. But I doubt anyone cares. I can't think of a single language where [ɣ] and [ɰ] are different phonemes.
Anyway:
As for [ʁ], that can either be a rhotic, or not, depending on the language; but Greek does not have that sound so whatever. However in some languages (Arabic is one) there can be a lot of ambiguity on whether they have velar or uvular fricatives. IMO Arabic has these sounds further back than in Greek, closer to uvular. Sometimes these are called "post-velar" to avoid having to answer if they are uvular or not.
[ɦ] is literally just a breathy /h/ and not a [ɡ]-like sound at all, although in some Slavic languages (Czech is one) that is where it historically came from.
The bottom line here is that you simply need to learn phonetics better if you are confused by all this. To answer your first question: the sound [ɣ] is closer to an [ʁ], but not the same thing. There you go.
ego wrote:Woods wrote:Does anyone pronounce γ like I've always imagined it - as a voiced h, or is it more like a German r?
nope. It's a fricative
Woods wrote:ego wrote:Woods wrote:Does anyone pronounce γ like I've always imagined it - as a voiced h, or is it more like a German r?
nope. It's a fricative
Has it got anything to do with Arabic ع ?
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