“过了”

[Psi-Lord]

I'm acquainted with the difference that there'd exist between sentences such as:

1) 他断过他的大腿。
2) 他断了他的大腿。

And, because of examples like those, I used to think either 过 or 了 might suffice in such contexts. However, how exactly the following sentences differ from each other?

3a) 我看过那部电影。
3b) 我看过了那部电影。

I mean, how 了 affects the meaning when added to 3a?

[勺园之鬼]

Haha, I am not going to explain the use of 了 today...
I will only tell you that 了 is not one but two different particles; and this in every grammar. They are usually called 了1 and 了2, even in Chinese grammars... One of the tricks to recognise it easily is that one of them is immediately after the verb, the other at the end of the sentence... And there are even subdivisions for these.
And as I guess for now only you, Psi-Lord, is interested in it - haven't you got a grammar where you can check it now?

[Psi-Lord]

Haha, I am not going to explain the use of 了 today...

That's quite a standard answer from you.

Lord, is interested in it - haven't you got a grammar where you can check it now?

And that's exactly from my grammar book that I got that from—or do you really think I'd bother asking a question the answer to which I could find somewhere else on my own? I've already been through the chapter on 了, and I've read all the examples of what the author calls S-了 (= sentence-final 了) and V-了 (verb suffix 了, aka perfective marker). Yet, I've been totally unable to analise that pair of sentences and find out what 了 might convey that 过 couldn't as an experimental suffix. Or the other way round, in case it makes any difference.

[Psi-Lord]

Since 勺园之鬼 complained on MSN that I didn't really give all the details I know about it, here it goes, straight from my grammar book.

First, the author does say that the 了 in that sentence is a V-了. And what is his definition of V-了? He divides it into two subgroups: one for independent sentences (1), and other for serial verb phrases (2).

(1) V-了 signs the termination of an action (being therefore also called perfective marker, perfective suffix etc.). When suffixed to the last verb of a sentence, it can also convey what most Western languages treat as past tense. It only occurs in affirmative sentences, and can only be suffixed onto activity and achivement verbs.

(2) V-了 is used to mark the sequence of actions, and occurs directly after the first verb in the series (though some speakers allow it to occur after the object). The adverb 就 may occur before the second verb phrase, and the connector 以后 may occur at the end of the first verb phrase. Strictly speaking, though, any of these (V-了, 就 or 以后) can be omitted. If marking a past sequence of actions, V-了 must also occur in the second verb phrase, either after the verb or, if the verb has a one-syllable object, at the end of the sentence.

Then, how does the author define V-过? He defines it as a verb suffix that indicates the speaker has performed an activity before (hence its also being called experimental suffix). It can be suffixed onto verbs that describe repeatable events, and indicates that an action occured at a time removed from the present time.

Later, though, the author just mentions that both V-过 and V-了 can be used together, and gives the sentence I used in my first post as an example: 我看过了那部电影。 He doesn't say, however, how the meaning of both suffixes combine, or what V-了 adds to the context, and this is exactly what I'm wondering about… If V-过 on its own is enough to indicate that the action is past and complete, which nuance does V-了 add to it?

[Aymeric]

I've been trying to have these points explained to me by most of the Chinese students I've met on campus so far, and most of them, surprisingly, tend to disagree with the very sophisticated distinctions made by grammarians and tell me that in fact all these slight nuances are not perceived by most native speakers who would for example often use le1 and le2 interchangeably

[azhong]

I found this previous thread, where two basic Chinese phrases is discussed: "V-過" and "V-了", which might be an important knowledge for Chinese beginners.
I didn't really read this thread over yet, nor check these two quotations below, which I just quoted very roughly and might loss some information. Basically I'd just like to suggest that, if any among us have interests to practice these two terms, we can then have some discussion.
You can also skip the reading but just throw out your sentences with "V-過" and "V-了".

1) 他断过他的大腿。
2) 他断了他的大腿。

(1) V-了 signs the termination of an action (being therefore also called perfective marker, perfective suffix etc.). When suffixed to the last verb of a sentence, it can also convey what most Western languages treat as past tense. It only occurs in affirmative sentences, and can only be suffixed onto activity and achivement verbs.

(2) V-了 is used to mark the sequence of actions, and occurs directly after the first verb in the series (though some speakers allow it to occur after the object). The adverb 就 may occur before the second verb phrase, and the connector 以后 may occur at the end of the first verb phrase. Strictly speaking, though, any of these (V-了, 就 or 以后) can be omitted. If marking a past sequence of actions, V-了 must also occur in the second verb phrase, either after the verb or, if the verb has a one-syllable object, at the end of the sentence.

Then, how does the author define V-过? He defines it as a verb suffix that indicates the speaker has performed an activity before (hence its also being called experimental suffix). It can be suffixed onto verbs that describe repeatable events, and indicates that an action occured at a time removed from the present time.

Later, though, the author just mentions that both V-过 and V-了 can be used together, and gives the sentence I used in my first post as an example: 我看过了那部电影。 He doesn't say, however, how the meaning of both suffixes combine, or what V-了 adds to the context, and this is exactly what I'm wondering about… If V-过 on its own is enough to indicate that the action is past and complete, which nuance does V-了 add to it?

[aforl]

I've been speaking the language for 21 years now, and honestly the difference between
看過 and 看過了 is negligible.

[maxtung]

1) 他断过他的大腿。
2) 他断了他的大腿。

两个表述都很奇怪的样子。
我是这样理解的：
1）他的大腿断过→ has been broken before
2）他的大腿断了→is broken

[MoKangWei]

I think that 了 works only to emphasize the 过, as we say in Portuguese "pra encher linguiça".

[victoria1359]

Since 勺园之鬼 complained on MSN that I didn't really give all the details I know about it, here it goes, straight from my grammar book.

First, the author does say that the 了 in that sentence is a V-了. And what is his definition of V-了? He divides it into two subgroups: one for independent sentences (1), and other for serial verb phrases (2).

(1) V-了 signs the termination of an action (being therefore also called perfective marker, perfective suffix etc.). When suffixed to the last verb of a sentence, it can also convey what most Western languages treat as past tense. It only occurs in affirmative sentences, and can only be suffixed onto activity and achivement verbs.

(2) V-了 is used to mark the sequence of actions, and occurs directly after the first verb in the series (though some speakers allow it to occur after the object). The adverb 就 may occur before the second verb phrase, and the connector 以后 may occur at the end of the first verb phrase. Strictly speaking, though, any of these (V-了, 就 or 以后) can be omitted. If marking a past sequence of actions, V-了 must also occur in the second verb phrase, either after the verb or, if the verb has a one-syllable object, at the end of the sentence.

Then, how does the author define V-过? He defines it as a verb suffix that indicates the speaker has performed an activity before (hence its also being called experimental suffix). It can be suffixed onto verbs that describe repeatable events, and indicates that an action occured at a time removed from the present time.

Later, though, the author just mentions that both V-过 and V-了 can be used together, and gives the sentence I used in my first post as an example: 我看过了那部电影。 He doesn't say, however, how the meaning of both suffixes combine, or what V-了 adds to the context, and this is exactly what I'm wondering about… If V-过 on its own is enough to indicate that the action is past and complete, which nuance does V-了 add to it?

OMG! I have never know Chinese is so difficult until today...PS: I'm Chinese!!!!