Hokkien Study Group [Split]

[księżycowy]

What I meant is that even the resources in English often assume knowledge of Mandarin Chinese.

Where as Latin is taught as a language in its own right, with no assumed knowledge.

[vijayjohn]

That's just resources written in English, though. My understanding is that it has always been common, for example, for people to learn Classical Chinese in other countries in the Sinosphere, long before Mandarin Chinese even existed. Surely there are resources for learning Classical Chinese through Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. without assuming any prior knowledge of Mandarin Chinese.

[azhong]

That's just resources written in English, though. My understanding is that it has always been common, for example, for people to learn Classical Chinese in other countries in the Sinosphere, long before Mandarin Chinese even existed. Surely there are resources for learning Classical Chinese through Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. without assuming any prior knowledge of Mandarin Chinese.

你一定是在開玩笑吧？中文的 白話文運動 開始於西元1919年的五四運動，那時新加坡和越南應該都還沒建國吧？新加坡於1965年脫離馬來西亞獨立，越南於1954年脫離法國獨立。
我想，如果像Ks所說，光透過英文仍然無法直接學習文言文，那麽應該就只能透過白話文了吧。

[księżycowy]

That's just resources written in English, though. My understanding is that it has always been common, for example, for people to learn Classical Chinese in other countries in the Sinosphere, long before Mandarin Chinese even existed. Surely there are resources for learning Classical Chinese through Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. without assuming any prior knowledge of Mandarin Chinese.

Be that as it may, none of us presently here in this thread are in that context except for Azhong.

I'm certainly not discounting that countries in East Asia do it differently. But you brought up the example of people who learned Latin (presumably in the US), so I was speaking to that.

[vijayjohn]

Everything both of you said is true, but I think it's also missing the point!

你一定是在開玩笑吧？中文的 白話文運動 開始於西元1919年的五四運動，那時新加坡和越南應該都還沒建國吧？新加坡於1965年脫離馬來西亞獨立，越南於1954年脫離法國獨立。
我想，如果像Ks所說，光透過英文仍然無法直接學習文言文，那麽應該就只能透過白話文了吧。

我一点也不在开玩笑， 学文言文跟建国有什么关系呀？古时候越南人、日本人、韩国人等等都是用文言文写文学作品的。

Be that as it may, none of us presently here in this thread are in that context except for Azhong.

Yes. I don't see why that matters here.

Before any of the languages in the Sinosphere developed scripts of their own, literature throughout the region was written in Classical Chinese. Even now, e.g. in Japan, people still write in Classical Chinese sometimes. This literature in Classical Chinese predates Old Mandarin by hundreds of years. Clearly, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. authors writing in Classical Chinese at the time learned it without studying Mandarin Chinese.

[azhong]

我一点也不是在开玩笑，

It's unnatural to omit "是" in the sentence, possibly because there lacks a verb in your original sentence. "在开玩笑" didn't act as a verb in Chinese.

On the other hand, FYI,
"我不开玩笑。"
It's natural, but it often means "I don't joke" instead of "I'm not joking."

I don't joke at all: "我從來不开玩笑。"
（*"我一点也不开玩笑。" is unnatural.)

Back to your opinion. If there is any Asian country where ancient Chinese were once used write materials to teach the obsolete language with their new language, I guess it could only be Japan.

BTW, a question please: Which on-line dictionary are you using for learning Taiwanese? The spelling system you are using is different from the one Taiwan government promotes.

[księżycowy]

Be that as it may, none of us presently here in this thread are in that context except for Azhong.

Yes. I don't see why that matters here.

It matters because it started with talking about a specific person's interest in learning Classical Chinese in this thread. Most of what you've said is outside of that context, Vijay.

Looking at do_shahbaz's language profile, they might be able to utilize Japanese resources, but that might be beyond their level a bit, I'm not sure.

If we're talking generally about how people learn and utilize Classical Chinese over the world, what you've said is right on point.

Regardless, my suspicion at the moment is that do_shahbaz might have moved on to Shanghainese. So this conversation might be moot at this point.

[azhong]

Be that as it may, none of us presently here in this thread are in that context except for Azhong.

Oops! Did you try to tell me in a very polite way that I've been off-topic, księżycowy? I apologized if I did. It's obviously me who initiated this topic.

You can tell me in a more frankly way next time and needn't worry about offending me. My English isn't good enough yet to understand phrasing too courteous if I don't repetitively read them. You can just say something like, "Azhong, please stop your relevant posts because they have already gotten off-topic in the thread."

[księżycowy]

Oops! Did you try to tell me in a very polite way that I've been off-topic, księżycowy? I apologized if I did. It's obviously me who initiated this topic.

No, no. I was saying that only you (among those currently active in this particular thread) are in a context that might allow you to learn Classical Chinese in a way that does not require knowing some Mandarin. I hope that's clearer for you.

[azhong]

Got it. Clear now, and thank you.

Context: the situation within which something exists or happens, and that can help explain it;

[vijayjohn]

If we're talking generally about how people learn and utilize Classical Chinese over the world, what you've said is right on point.

I was.

[księżycowy]

I know you were.

[vijayjohn]

BTW, a question please: Which on-line dictionary are you using for learning Taiwanese? The spelling system you are using is different from the one Taiwan government promotes.

I don't think any of us are using a dictionary; we were using a book. The spelling system we're using is Pe̍h-ōe-jī (白话字), as far as I know.

[księżycowy]

Yes, and most of the dictionaries I am familiar with use POJ as well.

[vijayjohn]

Back to your opinion. If there is any Asian country where ancient Chinese were once used write materials to teach the obsolete language with their new language, I guess it could only be Japan.

Well, Classical Chinese was used in a lot of countries besides just China and Japan, so people writing in them must have learned them somehow, just not necessarily through books in the modern sense.

[azhong]

A question: in English the pronunciation is /p/ and /b/, but in the POJ system it seems to become /ph/ and /p/ respectively? And also other sets for example, /t/ and /d/ becomes /th/ and /t/.

Is it possible to give me some simple explanations about it? I heard IPA, and l learned Kenyon and Knott at school. What's the POJ spelling system related to?

And, is there such a pronuciation of /b/, /d/, /g/, etc in the system where POJ belongs to? Are these three pronunciations for linguistics: /ph/, /p/ and /b/ or are /p/ and /b/ just another symbol for the same pronunciation of /ph/ and /p/?

Thank you.

BTW, I've found an on-line POJ dictionary here and a ebook dictionary download here, the same religional organization where ks ordered his materials.

[vijayjohn]

My understanding is that Hokkien has true voiced stops. English does not really have true voicing. Strictly speaking, what linguists transcribe as /b/ in English words is more comparable to /p/ in many other languages than to /b/ in those languages. /p/ in English is also often (though not always) aspirated.

The same is true of other stops in English as well.

[azhong]

Starting from Vijaya's response, I've learned something new for me form wiki:

/pʰ/: a voiceless and aspirated stop(stop=consonant sound), e.g. pin [pʰɪn]
/p/: a voiceless and unaspirated stop, e.g. spin [spɪn]
/b/: a voicing stop

Quoted from Aspirated consonant - 3.1 Allophonic:

Aspiration and voicing of stops in American English
pin with aspirated p,
spin with unaspirated p,
bin with partially voiced b,
nip with unaspirated p,
nib with partially voiced b:
[pʰɪˑn spɪˑn bɪˑn nɪp nɪˑb]

So, I guess in Taiwanese there is no /b/? I don't see it the stop used so far.

In the audio recording of 4.3 Armenian examples of the same wiki page, I can hardly distinguish [dur] from [tur].

Voicing and aspiration in Eastern Armenian stops and affricates
դուր, տուր, թուր
"chisel, give!, sword"
dur, tur, t’ur
[dur tur tʰur]

But I guess all of you have known these very well.

[OldBoring]

/b/: a voicing stop

I'm not sure but I think the sound of 希望的望 has /b/ in Minnan.

[azhong]

/b/: a voicing stop

I'm not sure but I think the sound of 希望的望 has /b/ in Minnan.

Okay, got it. Thank you, Oldboring. So, 牛 should be /gū/, with voicing stop /g/, I guess?
Do you know any Hokkien pronunciation with voicing /d/?