聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

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Woods
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聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby Woods » 2021-03-02, 13:02

I'm still puzzled with the standard Mandarin tones and I don't have a Chinese speaker around to train me.

I watched this video yesterday which intends to make things easier:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zpD6rigORXc

It was a nice surprise that the guy says the 1st tone does not need to be elevated higher than one's natural pitch; however, every other video or article on the Internet suggest it does.

So I understand that the 3rd tone must be lower than the other ones (with a "bass" voice); so far the biggest confusion is the 1st tone and its relation to the 2nd and 4th. Does it have to be higher or lower than their trajectories?

According to the guy from the video, the 2nd tone would rise from 1st one up and the 4th would fall from above until it reaches it. But according to the other materials around this is not how it is. Can anyone help me understand the 1st, 2nd and 4th tones? And I guess also how to make sure I don't confuse the 2nd and 3rd tones, since if it is only a matter of pitch I might be mixing them up.

I think it will be a lot easier to speak if I keep the 1st tone where my voice naturally is and I don't have to raise it - but do natives speak like that at some places or is it only a workaround?

Also if we trust Wikipedia, the 1st tone is called 陰平 (yīn píng) "dark level", the 2nd 陽平 (yáng píng) "light level", the 3rd - 上 (shǎng/shàng) "rising" and the 4th - 去 qù ("departing"). Does that mean that in the understanding of native speakers only the low-voice bass tone is considered rising? And what makes the 1rs and 2nd tones both level, if in Western understanding only the first one is?

One thing is clear - whenever I speak, I seem to mess up all tones and Chinese speakers make me repeat a few times, apparently they cannot make out what I'm saying because of the tones.

PS And an extra question: the "no-tone" option is also elevated as the 1st tone, isn't it - thus making it practically the same, maybe that's the reason why in bopomofo they're rendered the same? Or is that just bad pronunciation from online dictionaries?

azhong

Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby azhong » 2021-03-08, 7:36

Hi Woods:

I can help your pronunciation if you also have a LINE account where we can convey our voice records directly, the only proper APP for me that I can figure out. Or you can wait if some other Unilangers will provide their help in other ways.

(VijayJohn's pronunciation is excellent, BTW. I met him once. His pronunciation in Mandarin is even more standard than mine.)

"The first goes flat; second, rising; third, curving (down first then turning up); fourth, falling."
(一聲平,二聲揚,三聲拐彎四聲降。)
The key is not their relatively higher or lower frequency compared to the rest, but more the special “shape of sound" for each tone, which I have mentioned.

DM me your LINE id if you'd like to.

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Yasna
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Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby Yasna » 2021-03-08, 17:14

Woods wrote:It was a nice surprise that the guy says the 1st tone does not need to be elevated higher than one's natural pitch; however, every other video or article on the Internet suggest it does.

What he should have said is that some learners make the pitch of the 1st tone excessively high. It's the relative pitch that matters though.

Have you seen the relevant diagrams for tones? I found them pretty helpful.

Image

Tone realization in natural speech (third tone doesn't rise except when its the final tone of an utterance)

Image

Tone length:

Image

Neutral tone:

Image
Last edited by Yasna on 2021-03-09, 23:12, edited 1 time in total.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby linguoboy » 2021-03-08, 19:17

Is fourth tone really less than a third the length of third tone? I didn't think the discrepancy was that pronounced.

I'm also wondering where fifth tone/"toneless" syllables would fit on that chart.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby azhong » 2021-03-09, 1:40

I don't think Madarin has different "tone-length" as English does.
The fist chart of Yasna is very helpful, with a remark: the key is not their relative higher or lower position/frequency but it's special shape. But, on the other hand, I think all the charts Yasna provided are indeed helpful.

As for the fifth tone, 輕聲,“light tone", it never stands alone; it shows up (as a simplified transformation) only when combining with other characters in a phrase. e.g.
子:3
but
兒子: 2-5

A suggestion to Woods: try Google Translator as your pronunciation teacher. The pronunciation of AI is good enough, and you don't need to bother people too much.

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Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby Yasna » 2021-03-09, 3:42

azhong wrote:The fist chart of Yasna is very helpful, with a remark: the key is not their relative higher or lower position/frequency but it's special shape.

Sorry, I read your post too quickly. Are you sure relative pitch frequency doesn't matter, both within a syllable and across an utterance? I think the shape in the diagrams is depicting exactly that relative pitch frequency, no?
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

azhong

Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby azhong » 2021-03-09, 4:43

Yes, it indeed is. And it's a natural result when you combine independent characters into a word stream, making the second tone have a higher frequency than the first tone, for example, since you are rising. But still, it's not a must. In some special cases, a dramatic dialogue in a play on stage, for example, I can still have a second-tone character with a lower frequency compared to the succeeded first-tone character, but it is still fine and can be recognized. The shape of each tone dominates.

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Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby Woods » 2021-03-09, 8:53

linguoboy wrote:I'm also wondering where fifth tone/"toneless" syllables would fit on that chart.

I found this, I don't know how accurate it is:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I3PocUaxiiM

azhong

Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby azhong » 2021-03-09, 10:07

Not that complicated, really. Natural-tone, or no-tone, has only one way to be pronounced regardless. If you neglect her complex rules and just repeatedly listening to her examples, of which her pronunciation are good, you might be directly able to catch the tone of a no-tone.

Basically it's just a slight tone, decorating the succeeding character, because it acts so in its meaning, too. And that is why we name in in Chinese as "輕聲", literally "light-tone". How come a relatively unimportant, light, decorative tone still has so many complex variations?

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Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby Yasna » 2021-03-19, 0:42

Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

azhong

Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby azhong » 2021-03-19, 8:01

A good vedio. His pronunciation is standard.

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Re: 聲調 (Shēngdiào) / Mandarin tones

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-02-09, 3:18

I remember when I was much younger and trying to learn tones in Mandarin, I was really confused. I found the accent marks confusing and thought first tone was mid flat, second tone was high flat, third tone was rising, and fourth tone was low flat, which was all completely wrong! :P It took me an especially long time to understand third tone. It was much easier when I realized it's usually just low flat in practice.


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