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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-14, 3:19
by vijayjohn
księżycowy wrote:I think it's safe to say the Vijay would be ok with that. This week is pronunciation week.

Okay.

The Vijay? :lol:
EDIT: That reminds me, when do we all want to check in and see what our progress has been? Sunday? Monday? Another day?

Never? :twisted:

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-14, 9:10
by księżycowy
"that Vijay"

And I'll say Wednesday, because that's a week from yesterday.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-14, 17:31
by dEhiN
księżycowy wrote:And I'll say Wednesday, because that's a week from yesterday.

Sounds good. I take it I can go through the pronunciation section of SAH, along with the audio and I should be able to pick up the basics? As Vijay said, I can also use Wikipedia.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-14, 19:34
by księżycowy
In a nutshell, yes.

You can also use TME, if you want. But there are 24 pronunciation lessons. That might be a little much to cram into a week. :P

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-15, 1:31
by vijayjohn
Do we (each) have to do this check-in-with-our-progress thing?

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-15, 9:20
by księżycowy
Ideally, yes. Why?

EDIT: But noöne is forcing anyone to do it, least of all me. Why do you ask, Vijay? Don't want to play ball? :P

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-15, 14:57
by Ser
Hi guys. I've been exchanging PMs with ksiezycowy and I'm now part of the study group too. :)

vijayjohn wrote:EDIT: If you didn't know, I also have a website where I used to teach Malayalam, but the design is so bad it's virtually non-existent. :P I don't really have the option of working on it anymore, either. :doggy: (Which is why I offer lessons on UniLang instead). I don't think the fonts work anymore, either, not even for me. :para: It might still have some material you could find useful, though.

By the way, the offer I made to you more than a year ago to improve the look of your website (for free) still stands. I could also convert all the non-Unicode Malayalam text to Unicode (so that it displays well in Windows Vista and later out of the box (but not Windows XP...), and of course also macOS); it's not a problem for me. I could do it all in literally one day.

Here's a page from my translation of Zompist's LCK. You can see the page looks good even when printing it from the browser into paper.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-15, 15:57
by księżycowy
I was wondering if I should wait and see if you posted, or if I should say you joined. :P

Welcome aboard (again :lol: )!

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 3:54
by vijayjohn
księżycowy wrote:Ideally, yes. Why?

EDIT: But noöne is forcing anyone to do it, least of all me. Why do you ask, Vijay? Don't want to play ball? :P

Because I don't even do that for the languages I'm studying seriously!
Ser wrote:Hi guys. I've been exchanging PMs with ksiezycowy and I'm now part of the study group too. :)

Hoan-gêng!
By the way, the offer I made to you more than a year ago to improve the look of your website (for free) still stands.

I have no doubt that it does, but I don't even know how to edit it at this point. I used to work on it using Microsoft Frontpage and FTP, then had to change computers (I don't remember how many times), and now I don't have access to either of those and God knows how I'm supposed to do such a thing now. Even if I did, what good would it be given that I'm at work nine hours a day five days a week? On a practical level, what is the difference between trying to revamp my website and just doing what I've been doing anyway?

EDIT: Okay, so I gave it a little more thought. :P I think now I might be willing to give it a try, but as much as I hate to say this, there's no guarantee that it will lead to anything much. The motivation to try to learn any Indian language just doesn't exist for the vast majority of people.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 4:18
by Ser
vijayjohn wrote:
Ser wrote:By the way, the offer I made to you more than a year ago to improve the look of your website (for free) still stands.

I have no doubt that it does, but I don't even know how to edit it at this point. I used to work on it using Microsoft Frontpage and FTP, then had to change computers (I don't remember how many times), and now I don't have access to either of those and God knows how I'm supposed to do such a thing now.

I can recover the content with relative ease and convert it to simple HTML. I'm assuming you know HTML, and if you don't, it's not too different from the BBcode you're used to on UniLang. There's no real need to somehow use Frontpage again (a product now abandoned by Microsoft).

If you had FTP access, that means that you're most likely still paying for hosting out of your pocket (along with the cost of the domain jaimalayalam.com, I guess with the same company). Do you remember your username and/or your email on your hosting company's website? (Whether it's Dreamhost, GoDaddy or what have you.) You can recover the account, and then obtain the FTP credentials again. If you insist saying you can't access your hosting account, the website is probably going to die in less than two years anyway, so I'd say we should recover, save and post the content somewhere else.

I just happen to be happy to see people posting informed language learning content. And accurate Malayalam resources are scarce, since as you say even those published by linguists have many issues.
Even if I did, what good would it be given that I'm at work nine hours a day five days a week? On a practical level, what is the difference between trying to revamp my website and just doing what I've been doing anyway?

A website is easier to navigate, and possibly find, than posts in a forum. Plus I'm assuming you'd be interested in recovering your old content.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 4:53
by vijayjohn
Ser wrote:I can recover the content with relative ease and convert it to simple HTML.

Okay. Thanks! :)
I'm assuming you know HTML,

I did, at least to the extent it was necessary to create what I'd already created. I don't know whether I can accurately say I still do since I haven't done anything with it in so many years.

What I really, really don't know is how to design anything. :lol:
and if you don't, it's not too different from the BBcode you're used to on UniLang. There's no real need to somehow use Frontpage again (a product now abandoned by Microsoft).

True!
If you had FTP access, that means that you're most likely still paying for hosting out of your pocket (along with the cost of the domain jaimalayalam.com, I guess with the same company). Do you remember your username and/or your email on your hosting company's website? (Whether it's Dreamhost, GoDaddy or what have you.) You can recover the account, and then obtain the FTP credentials again. If you insist saying you can't access your hosting account, the website is probably going to die in less than two years anyway, so I'd say we should recover, save and post the content somewhere else.

Here's the thing: My dad is the one paying for hosting. He knows my user name, etc. But, you know, as enamored of our language as my dad is, and although I'm sure he can (if he tries hard enough, anyway) find something to appreciate on some level about me trying to create resources like this, he's also well aware of how little people are interested, probably even more than I am. I am 100% certain that sooner or later, his opinion about this will be something along the lines of "don't waste your time trying to do this because nobody will care, especially when you could be spending the same amount of time doing something more worthwhile like trying to get a real job." He's told me that a million times. Why would I want to do something that's impossible without the assistance of someone who isn't supportive of it in the first place?
I just happen to be happy to see people posting informed language learning content.

Great! Will you learn it?

See, that's the thing. Who is going to use this anyway?
And accurate Malayalam resources are scarce, since as you say even those published by linguists have many issues.

So do mine, though! I just try to do what I can. :)
A website is easier to navigate, and possibly find, than posts in a forum.

Okay, fair enough. My website actually used to be (and maybe even still is, to some extent) not that difficult to find for people who wanted to learn Malayalam.
Plus I'm assuming you'd be interested in recovering your old content.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much there is to recover at this point. All I taught on that website was part of the script, some basic words/phrases, and a tiny bit of grammar.

I'm sorry for giving you so much grief over this btw, but I've been grappling with these kinds of questions since I was like twelve years old. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The amount of resistance that ambitions like this get is incredible and can feel very much insurmountable.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 9:10
by księżycowy
This is starting to turn into a Malayalam thead, isn't it? :P

vijayjohn wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Ideally, yes. Why?

EDIT: But noöne is forcing anyone to do it, least of all me. Why do you ask, Vijay? Don't want to play ball? :P

Because I don't even do that for the languages I'm studying seriously!

In that case...... I must insist that you do this. :twisted:

In all seriousness, it's just a quick check in. You just have to give a sentence or two about what you did during the week so we know where your at, and if you have any problems that would be a good time to say them too (though it doesn't have to wait that long).

Example:
"I worked on sentences 7-11 (Unit 1) and got stuck on classifier uī."

Or something like that. For the purposes of a study group, I think it's important that we know where each other is, and such. How much you share is up to you though. I'm not looking for paragraphs or anything, but if you want to go that far, go for it. :P
(I'm writing this for everyone, not just in response to your comment Vijay.)

Do that sound reasonable?

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 11:21
by Ser
Sounds reasonable to me.
księżycowy wrote:This is starting to turn into a Malayalam thead, isn't it? :P

I think Vijay's made his case saying he's not really interested in having that done.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 12:01
by vijayjohn
Yes, it sounds reasonable. :)

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 12:14
by księżycowy
Ser wrote:I think Vijay's made his case saying he's not really interested in having that done.

Admittedly, I didn't read everything you guys said about Malayalam. I was just amused you two were talking about here. :P

Getting back to the check-ins, this first one (potentially two) are more or less just a check to see if we're ready to dive into the units proper, or if we need a little more time with pronunciation or whatever, so I'm primarily talking about other check-ins once we've started the units proper.

This check-in thing, by the way, is not meant to be a thing where you have to feel like you either have to catch up with the rest of us, or can't go ahead.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 12:19
by vijayjohn
Basically, he was offering to revamp my website, and I was telling him why that may not be such a good idea. But it sounds like we're done now. :)

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-16, 13:13
by księżycowy
That reminds me, Sound Drill 2 (right after the Basic Sentences in Unit 1) is also helpful for basic pronunciation. I wanted to point that out for dEhiN and Salajane. :)

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-17, 16:21
by vijayjohn
And I'll probably transcribe that pretty soon, seeing as I'm almost done with Sound Drill 1!

Meanwhile, I noticed that people are trying to get used to tones, and some of us have been talking a bit about comparative studies vs. studying one language, so as an example, I thought I'd talk a bit here about how the (Amoy) Hokkien tone system compares with other varieties of Chinese! :) Hokkien has almost as many tones as the literature describes for Middle Chinese (IIRC Hokkien generally has a lot more in common with Middle Chinese than e.g. Mandarin, but this is also true of other Min languages, Yue, Hakka, and probably Pinghua). However, literary Hokkien has completely merged tones 3 and 4 from Middle Chinese into the high falling tone, whereas spoken Hokkien has instead partially merged tones 4 and 6 into the mid flat tone (specifically, words that begin with an obstruent in Middle Chinese and had tone 4 are pronounced with a mid flat tone in spoken Hokkien, just like words with tone 6 in Middle Chinese are pronounced in both spoken and literary Hokkien).

One neat thing about these tones is that in isolation, the high flat and rising tones with vowel/nasal finals correspond perfectly to (and are nearly identical with) Mandarin. If a word in Amoy Hokkien has a high flat tone in isolation and doesn't end with a stop, then its cognate in Mandarin has one, too, and same with the rising tone. If it does end with a stop, its equivalent in Mandarin with have either a rising tone or a falling tone.

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-17, 16:31
by księżycowy
I'd find a comparation between Hokkien, Mandarin, Wu and Cantonese tones interesting. :P

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Posted: 2018-06-17, 20:12
by vijayjohn
Oh, you mean the tone systems themselves? As opposed to how they compare to Middle Chinese? Also, what does "Wu" mean? Different Wu varieties have different tone systems, so I'm going to guess you mean Shanghainese.

Basically, (Beijing) Mandarin (as you probably know) has four phonemic tones (other varieties of Mandarin have different systems!): high flat, rising, falling-rising, and falling. The falling-rising tone is (IME and according to at least one native(?) speaker) typically pronounced as just a flat low tone.

Hokkien of course has seven tones if you count the two checked ones so five phonemic tones at any rate.

Cantonese has the following system, which I guess could be counted as anywhere between six and eleven depending on how you count them (in particular, whether you count variant pronunciations as separate tones): There is one high flat tone, but it's pronounced as a high falling tone for characters not used as concrete nouns. Then there's another tone that can be either low falling or low flat, another that's high rising, another that's low rising, another that's mid flat, and another that's low flat (but necessarily a bit higher-pitched than the previously mentioned low flat tone). Syllables that end with a stop can have either of the last two tones I just mentioned or high tone.

So basically, Cantonese has low flat, mid-low flat, mid-high flat, high flat, low rising, and high rising. That's slightly more distinctions than Amoy Hokkien makes.

Shanghainese apparently has just two phonemic tones, basically falling vs. (low) rising; some people consider it a pitch accent system rather than a tonal one IIRC.