Hokkien Study Group

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-06-18, 18:08

vijayjohn wrote:
Ser wrote:I'm finding the tone sandhi more confusing than I thought, or more precisely, harder to remember than I thought. :hmm:

I don't even bother memorizing the rules. :P

Are you not therefore concerned that you're *gasps* mispronouncing the tones? :o
vijayjohn wrote:but high-tone checked syllables become low.

Right. I edited my post above to reflect this.
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-18, 19:16

dEhiN wrote:Ok, I gotta ask: what's a checked tone or syllable?

księżycowy wrote:One that ends in a glottal stop (<q> in Bodman, <-h> in POJ) or -p, -k, -t.

Or, to put it another way, one that ends in a stop :)
dEhiN wrote:4 - Mid Checked

I think this is usually called low checked; it's just that it's possibly a bit higher in Taiwanese accents than in Amoy Hokkien. (Although in tone languages in general, the exact pitch/frequency is often highly variable anyway, and it's more about relative pitch/frequency than absolute values, as with basically all other aspects of phonology).
dEhiN wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Traditionally it's numbered 1-8 (skipping 6), but other than that, yes.

The 4th and 8th tones are the checked tones.

Thanks! And I didn't even bother looking at the diagram to see that 6 is skipped. Any particular reason?

Because tones 1-5 and 7-8 all correspond directly to Middle Chinese tones, whereas tone 6 is merged with either tone 3 (in literary Amoy Hokkien) or tone 7 (in spoken Amoy Hokkien).
Ser wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Ser wrote:I'm finding the tone sandhi more confusing than I thought, or more precisely, harder to remember than I thought. :hmm:

I don't even bother memorizing the rules. :P

Are you not therefore concerned that you're *gasps* mispronouncing the tones? :o

No, because I'm not pronouncing anything in the first place. I'm just learning it passively atm. :)

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 19:23

I though it was merged with the second time, but my memory is fuzzy on that.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-06-18, 19:59

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:4 - Mid Checked

I think this is usually called low checked; it's just that it's possibly a bit higher in Taiwanese accents than in Amoy Hokkien. (Although in tone languages in general, the exact pitch/frequency is often highly variable anyway, and it's more about relative pitch/frequency than absolute values, as with basically all other aspects of phonology).

Right, that's true.

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Traditionally it's numbered 1-8 (skipping 6), but other than that, yes.

The 4th and 8th tones are the checked tones.

Thanks! And I didn't even bother looking at the diagram to see that 6 is skipped. Any particular reason?

Because tones 1-5 and 7-8 all correspond directly to Middle Chinese tones, whereas tone 6 is merged with either tone 3 (in literary Amoy Hokkien) or tone 7 (in spoken Amoy Hokkien).

Right, which is what you wrote above! Sorry, I've only now started going through the materials, so while I've read all the discussion so far, I haven't had a reference point for it. As a result, even when my current questions have already been answered, I'm not always aware of the correlation! :D

Speaking of previous discussion, I only now noticed that the tones symbols used in the pdf and your Google Doc are different. I think this had to do with the transcription system, right? The pdf uses Bodman and the Google Doc uses POJ? If so, then it looks like in POJ high tone isn't marked. Then what about neutral tone? Bodman (or at least whatever the pdf uses) doesn't mark neutral tone, but does high tone. And why does POJ not mark the high tone but marks the high checked tone, yet marks the low tone and not the low checked tone? That seems quite confusing! Wouldn't it make more sense to not mark either the high tones (both checked and non-checked) or the low tones only?

Oh and I have another question. On page 2, under "Amoy Consonants", they write:
The only consonants that occur finally are: m, n, ng, p, t, k and q

But then 3 paragraphs later they write:
The consonants that occur initially as well as finally are

Maybe it's just me, but if you say the only consonants that occur finally are m/n/ng/p/t/k/q, then I wouldn't expect any of the others to occur finally! Or do they mean that those only occur finally, whereas the others occur both initially and finally? If so, I think they should've phrased it as "The consonants that only occur finally are".

Also, I take it there are no diphthongs or triphthongs that involve /e/?

And, finally, I see that Sound Drill 2 isn't yet complete in the Google Doc. Do we have an ETA on it? I'm just thinking if it won't be done before Wednesday, then perhaps we shouldn't include it as part of this (current) week's goals?
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-06-18, 20:04

Neutral tone is marked with two hyphens before the word in POJ, e.g. the second syllable in chia̍h--bē? 'Hello'.

That's right, POJ makes no sense.
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-06-18, 20:17

Ser wrote:Neutral tone is marked with two hyphens before the word in POJ, e.g. the second syllable in chia̍h--bē? 'Hello'.

That's right, POJ makes no sense.

So why are we using it? And why is the mid tone marked in is it takes the neutral tone? Even using two hyphens instead of a plus sign before the syllable that takes the neutral tone wouldn't matter as long as the syllable with the neutral tone didn't have a tone on it! Or I guess it's marked to show the original tone and also because unmarked syllables indicate high tone?
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 20:36

dEhiN wrote:Speaking of previous discussion, I only now noticed that the tones symbols used in the pdf and your Google Doc are different. I think this had to do with the transcription system, right? The pdf uses Bodman and the Google Doc uses POJ? If so, then it looks like in POJ high tone isn't marked.

Correct.
Then what about neutral tone? Bodman (or at least whatever the pdf uses) doesn't mark neutral tone, but does high tone.
The neutral tone is marked by the + used before the word(s) that are in the neutral tone. For example,
Sentence 1 of Unit 1: ciâq+ be//
indicatin that the <be> is in the neutral tone. Note the parallel to POJ here.
And why does POJ not mark the high tone but marks the high checked tone, yet marks the low tone and not the low checked tone? That seems quite confusing! Wouldn't it make more sense to not mark either the high tones (both checked and non-checked) or the low tones only?

Rule #1, this ain't no pinyin!
Rule #2, logic is illogical.

Oh and I have another question. On page 2, under "Amoy Consonants", they write:
The only consonants that occur finally are: m, n, ng, p, t, k and q

But then 3 paragraphs later they write:
The consonants that occur initially as well as finally are

Maybe it's just me, but if you say the only consonants that occur finally are m/n/ng/p/t/k/q, then I wouldn't expect any of the others to occur finally! Or do they mean that those only occur finally, whereas the others occur both initially and finally? If so, I think they should've phrased it as "The consonants that only occur finally are".

I checked the "Corrections and Additions"section in Vol. 2, and it doesn't say anything about those sections/pages. :hmm:

Also, I take it there are no diphthongs or triphthongs that involve /e/?

Check out Appendix D here. It'll give you the answer you're looking for, and plenty more. :P [Keeping in mind it's in POJ]

And, finally, I see that Sound Drill 2 isn't yet complete in the Google Doc. Do we have an ETA on it? I'm just thinking if it won't be done before Wednesday, then perhaps we shouldn't include it as part of this (current) week's goals?

That's what the PDF is for, no? :)

The google doc is more of a side project IMO, rather than for the study group.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 20:49

dEhiN wrote:So why are we using it?

Because it's one of the most common and established forms of Taiwanese romanization?

And why is the mid tone marked in is it takes the neutral tone? Even using two hyphens instead of a plus sign before the syllable that takes the neutral tone wouldn't matter as long as the syllable with the neutral tone didn't have a tone on it! Or I guess it's marked to show the original tone and also because unmarked syllables indicate high tone?

I've wondered for a while now why POJ always maintains the isolation tone spelling. But them again, if you wanted a system which spelled it exactly like it was pronounced (tone sandhi and all), that would make spelling it more complicated, and potentially confusing.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 20:52

I'll also add:
dEhiN wrote:Maybe it's just me, but if you say the only consonants that occur finally are m/n/ng/p/t/k/q, then I wouldn't expect any of the others to occur finally! Or do they mean that those only occur finally, whereas the others occur both initially and finally? If so, I think they should've phrased it as "The consonants that only occur finally are".

All of these consonants, except <q>, can occur initially or finally. It's the other consonants that don't occur finally. See that chart I linked to above (Appendix D).

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2018-06-18, 21:08

Then I'll add:

dEhiN wrote:
The consonants that occur initially as well as finally are


So basically either way you slice it, the pdf screwed up.
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 21:14

Probably. :P

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-18, 21:24

Y'all've been busy on this thread! :D
dEhiN wrote:Right, which is what you wrote above! Sorry, I've only now started going through the materials, so while I've read all the discussion so far, I haven't had a reference point for it. As a result, even when my current questions have already been answered, I'm not always aware of the correlation! :D

It's okay. :) To be fair, I just realized a while ago that this is pretty confusing, too, because AFAICT, it's usually tone four from Middle Chinese that's left out, not tone six.
Speaking of previous discussion, I only now noticed that the tones symbols used in the pdf and your Google Doc are different. I think this had to do with the transcription system, right? The pdf uses Bodman and the Google Doc uses POJ?

Yep.
If so, then it looks like in POJ high tone isn't marked.

Correct, the high flat unchecked tone isn't marked in POJ.
Then what about neutral tone? Bodman (or at least whatever the pdf uses) doesn't mark neutral tone, but does high tone.

Ser pretty much answered this question, but I dispute the idea that POJ makes no sense. Note that "neutral tone" is a commonly used term in the context of Chinese dialects/Sinitic languages ("Chinese dialects" and "Sinitic languages" are synonymous, btw; the only difference is whether you consider them dialects or languages) and doesn't refer to a phonemic tone (or to any tone that has clear origins in Middle Chinese) but rather to syllables that don't have a well-defined tone. Some of these syllables do have a well-defined tone in isolation, just not in certain contexts. For example, bē is mid tone in isolation, but in chia̍h--bē, it doesn't have a specific tone (a.k.a. it has neutral tone).
And why does POJ not mark the high tone but marks the high checked tone, yet marks the low tone and not the low checked tone? That seems quite confusing! Wouldn't it make more sense to not mark either the high tones (both checked and non-checked) or the low tones only?

I think this may go back to the tones of Middle Chinese again, combined with the all-important concept in Chinese culture of Yin and Yang. The tones of Middle Chinese were divided into four main categories (whose names are translated into English as "level," "rising," "departing," and "entering," but they're more widely known by their Chinese names as read out in Mandarin), each with two subcategories called "dark" and "light" in English (yīn and yáng in Mandarin). The high tone and the low checked tone are both dark according to this classification; this may be (part of the reason) why neither of them is marked (it may also have to do with the fact that the low tone, which is also dark, is not necessarily flat but rather low falling, whereas the high tone is flat. The high checked tone is light).
Oh and I have another question. On page 2, under "Amoy Consonants", they write:
The only consonants that occur finally are: m, n, ng, p, t, k and q

But then 3 paragraphs later they write:
The consonants that occur initially as well as finally are

Maybe it's just me, but if you say the only consonants that occur finally are m/n/ng/p/t/k/q, then I wouldn't expect any of the others to occur finally! Or do they mean that those only occur finally, whereas the others occur both initially and finally? If so, I think they should've phrased it as "The consonants that only occur finally are".

IMO that section is just really badly worded and organized, and what he should have said is first "here are all the consonants in Amoy Hokkien: b almost as in bark, c almost like" etc. and then "the only consonants that occur finally are: m, n, ng..."

Understandably enough, księżycowy didn't scan the introduction of this book since it doesn't actually teach anything in the language. However, it does include an admission that Volume 1 of Spoken Amoy Hokkien has a lot of things to be corrected and that the author unfortunately didn't get an opportunity to fix this at the time.
Also, I take it there are no diphthongs or triphthongs that involve /e/?

Bodman's system and POJ disagree as to what counts as a diphthong or triphthong. Bodman doesn't list any with <e> in them for sure, but POJ does have <oe> [ue] (which Bodman I think transcribes as <uê>).
And, finally, I see that Sound Drill 2 isn't yet complete in the Google Doc.

It is now! :P

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-06-18, 21:34

vijayjohn wrote:Y'all've been busy on this thread! :D

We've been a-doin' some learnin' here! For once!
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 21:40

I love it. :D

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-18, 21:55

The rewriting of Sound Drill 2? I'm glad, thanks! :)
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2018-06-18, 22:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 22:06

I was replying to Ser. His whole, "We've been a-doin' some learnin' here! For once!" thing.

But sure, that too. :whistle:

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-18, 23:13

I figured tbh. :blush:

I'm guessing I'll probably start the grammar section next Sunday or something, but I was wondering: How do you think we should add that part into the Google Doc? Should we create tables for the examples there, too, like we did for the sentences? Or do we just do things like this?

lú-tiàm 旅店 'hotel, hotels'

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-18, 23:22

I'm not sure.

I'd like to get away from tables there if possible. Maybe something similar to what you suggested.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-20, 5:38

I just added something to the Google Doc. It looks like this:
GRAMMATICAL NOTES AND DRILLS

The word lú-tiàm 旅店 may mean either 'hotel’ or ‘hotels' and the word chia̍h 食 may express the English ‘eat’, ‘eats’, and so forth.

Hó a m̄ hó? :)
好呀毋好?

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-20, 8:52

Hó.


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