Hokkien Study Group

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księżycowy
Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-07-05, 22:13

Ok, let's get into the exercises! (Well, they aren't called exercises in the book, rather kù "sentences")

V. How much does this cost?
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VI.
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VII. Translate From English to Taiwanese
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vijayjohn
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-07-07, 21:25

I just entered the amounts for exercise V because all the sentences begin the same way. I made a few mistakes. :P
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księżycowy

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-07-07, 23:25

vijayjohn wrote:8. Lãu-su

What's that? Portuguese? :P

księżycowy

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-07-08, 10:51

Shall we move on to Lesson 2? I can keep studying the numbers as we move ahead.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-08-31, 19:21

Sure!
księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:8. Lãu-su

What's that? Portuguese? :P

Lol I can never tell the difference between that and <ā> on UniLang.

Here are my answers for the Lesson 2 exercise on p. 46:
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do_shahbaz
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2021-01-09, 13:40

Hi,

I don't know if this board is still up and running, but could anyone re-post the link to the Drive folder containing resources for Hokkien? Among those resources are the TME Vocabulary Spreadsheet, which I had the pleasure to download. They are unfortunately nowhere longer to be found.

(I did send a PM to księżycowy, but the message being stuck in the Outbox I'd fear lest it hadn't been duly sent by the system and thereby wouldn't reach him, therefore I decided to post my request here. Apologies if you find my PM 'spamful'...)

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-09, 15:01

do_shahbaz wrote:Hi,

I don't know if this board is still up and running, but could anyone re-post the link to the Drive folder containing resources for Hokkien? Among those resources are the TME Vocabulary Spreadsheet, which I had the pleasure to download. They are unfortunately nowhere longer to be found.

(I did send a PM to księżycowy, but the message being stuck in the Outbox I'd fear lest it hadn't been duly sent by the system and thereby wouldn't reach him, therefore I decided to post my request here. Apologies if you find my PM 'spamful'...)

I know księżycowy isn't as active on here, so perhaps that's part of the problem? Although, I guess if the message was stuck in the Outbox, then chances are it was a system issue. I passed on your message to księżycowy, since I don't have sharing rights for that folder.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

księżycowy

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2021-01-09, 15:39

I don't quite remember if I shared anything else with you (I honestly don't even remember you asking me), but here is the link to the dropbox containing the TME materials:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rgjrjc41302f ... TUjG0N7yKa

do_shahbaz
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2021-01-09, 22:17

księżycowy wrote:I don't quite remember if I shared anything else with you (I honestly don't even remember you asking me)


I didn't? You (or whomever one else) posted the Drive link on this board/topic (or another one) for everyone to see. But anyways, 感謝!
Last edited by do_shahbaz on 2021-01-10, 5:21, edited 1 time in total.

księżycowy

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2021-01-09, 23:47

No problem. :)

księżycowy

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2021-12-27, 15:21

I just wanted to update this thread to say that I have finally been able to get in touch with the Maryknoll Language Center in Taiwan, and have ordered the audio for all the Taiwanese and Hakka textbooks. The audio should be in my hand sometime in February! Score!

I hope to revisit some Chinese at some point this coming year!

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2021-12-28, 13:18

Hi. I am really surprised there is a small group learning Taiwanese here, which I didn't know. May I join? Where have you been now? May I have a look at the context of the latest lesson you have read?

https://youtube.com/shorts/oCphLzGt_Bk?feature=share
Literally: hello. I also want to join, with you all together to learn Taiwanese.

Taiwanese is my mother's language, but I can't write the spelling correctly. I think I need to learn how to key-in some special marks for Taiwanese spelling. And I can't speak every term I need as I can in Mandarin. But speaking terms of daily conversation should be fine.

I found there were some Westerners teaching Taiwanese on the YouTube. I once watched one episofe or two of this YouTuber's lessons learning the spelling. (But soon I sprang back to learning English and German. ^_^)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v6PV1EyUttg

księżycowy wrote:I just wanted to update this thread to say that I have finally been able to get in touch with the Maryknoll Language Center in Taiwan, and have ordered the audio for all the Taiwanese and Hakka textbooks. The audio should be in my hand sometime in February! Score!

I hope to revisit some Chinese at some point this coming year!

I am living at Taiwan. If there is anything you think I can do for you, pls feel free to ask.
(In fact, I think I can help read and record Taiwanese so that you can save the fee. But I can't speak Hakka.)

księżycowy

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2021-12-28, 14:17

Well, I've already purchased the audio, so that ship has sailed. But I appreciate it non-the-less. :)

You certainly may join. I can't say I'm going to be very active in this group for a few months, however. Just to warn you up front. At the moment I don't really have the time for Chinese (Mandarin or Hokkien), as I'm focusing on Hebrew and Greek.

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2021-12-28, 14:38

vijayjohn wrote:Here are my answers for the Lesson 2 exercise on p. 46:

I saw this practice exercise. If anyone of you give me a English translation of these sentences, I can give an audio recording. I tried to read them but am unsure of some characters.

Or you can also give me some other sentences of which you need an audio recording in Taiwanese.

Edit:
https://youtu.be/CgNetU6WcMM
► Show Spoiler

księżycowy wrote:VII. Translate From English to Taiwanese
► Show Spoiler
¶ A note for correction: i didn't read the subject of the 2nd sentence correctly. What I've read is "Gua"(I), not "i"(he/she).
https://youtu.be/9QK0KyDcJ_U

do_shahbaz
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2022-01-07, 22:41

An attempt at creating a phonological diasystem encompassing all major Hokkien dialects. Thoughts?

Image

Notes:
- Cells shaded in green are those containing most 'conservative' pronunciations, which is used as the base of the diasystem. It would appear, at a glance, that Ciangciu is the most conservative out of the dialects.
- Southern Malayan (incl. Singaporean) pronunciations of some characters included for reference.
- Middle Chinese pronunciations presented in the table follow Zhengzhang (2015).

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-01-08, 2:08

do_shahbaz wrote:An attempt at creating a phonological diasystem encompassing all major Hokkien dialects. Thoughts?

Just FYI: I am just a native speaker, not a linguist and thus I am not capable of commenting such a professional study. Let's wait for some others.

You've known a character might have two or even more than two pronunciations in Taiwanese, for instance 家, listed in your table already. Why don't you put them next to each other?

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-01-08, 2:14

do_shahbaz wrote:An attempt at creating a phonological diasystem encompassing all major Hokkien dialects. Thoughts?

Just FYI: I am merely a native speaker, not a linguist; thus, I am not capable of commenting such a professional study. Let's wait for some others.

You've known a character might have two or even more than two pronunciations in Taiwanese, for instance the 家 listed in your table already. Why don't you put them next to each other?

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2022-01-08, 10:03

azhong wrote:Just FYI: I am just a native speaker, not a linguist and thus I am not capable of commenting such a professional study. Let's wait for some others.


Can hardly call myself a linguist, and neither am I a native speaker of Hokkien 笑

Can you confirm, or disprove, some of the phonetic values presented in the table? I'd taken most of the pronunciations from Wiktionary, and some from Lo Gongciong's (卢戆章) 一目了然初階 and Douglas's Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of Amoy. The latter two are outdated sources, no doubt, and a contemporary native 'informant' (if the title pleases you) would be infinitely more reliable than aforementioned sources.

Lo's Sinji 新字 names the following pronunciations for the character 鞋: Amoy /ke/, Ciangciu /kei/. The values given in Wiktionary differ, and I suppose the former must be outdated values, and so have put the Wiktionary pronunciations in the table. How do you pronounce 鞋?

azhong wrote:You've known a character might have two or even more than two pronunciations in Taiwanese, for instance 家, listed in your table already. Why don't you put them next to each other?


I had planned to sort the rhymes according to phonological affinity, though apparently things got a little messy in the way... Seems a little tidying-up is in order.

It would also seem that I'd missed several 'isoglossic' sets of rhymes in the way:

Amoy, Taiwanese cim
Coanciu cəm
Ciangciu com

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-01-08, 15:29

do_shahbaz wrote:Can you confirm, or disprove, some of the phonetic values presented in the table?

Let's do it his way, do_schhbaz. Following your list order, I made a phrase for each character (because I think I'll pronounce a character better when it's in a phrase) and I read all the phrases for you, twice for each phrase, five phrases in a group. Feel free to let me know if any discussion is still necessary.
I explained several terms in Mandarin in the ().

(I can't handle the IPA or any spelling system you are using; I've never learned it. I can't actually spell Taiwanese well yet; It wasn't taught when I was at school because speaking dialects were not encouraged then due to the political policy.)
Edit for a correction: I read 老師 twice, in item 8 and in 21, and the 師 is pronunced differently. I think my pronunciation in 21 is more correct in Taiwanese. The one I read in 8 is more Mandarin.
https://youtu.be/_QiFmGaCa3I
1 家庭
穿鞋 很細 (Mandarin很窄)
點火
欲(要) 出門
說明

6 學生
頭毛(頭髮)
老師
學習
祖先

11很粗
起家
蝦 馬
白色 一百元


16 活動 熱天
開花 講話

言語
工具

21使用 老師
開門 中央

衝 恭喜
一雙鞋

26 想法 點香
英國
平路 生giann :?: (生孩子)
天頂 (天上)


It would also seem that I'd missed several 'isoglossic' sets of rhymes in the way:

Honestly, I am unsure how to read the character in Taiwanese. I might read it as /jiam/ instinctively, and won't be surprised at all if it's wrong.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2022-01-09, 4:03

多謝,阿鍾! While I am very much ingratiated to you for the considerable effort you have taken in recording the pronunciations of the characters, transcribing them would take ample time and effort, and therefore would have to wait until I could muster the willpower and determination to do so.

I've just encountered a more reliable table of correspondences in a zhihu chat:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Apparently whoever posted the tables sourced it from《汉语方言深度接触研究》by 徐荣. The article can be found on cnki -- access to which I think I might still have. Let's see if I can have the article downloaded...


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