Hokkien Study Group

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azhong
Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-01-09, 4:14

According to the table, my Taiwanese pronunciation seems a mixture of the three...
It's reasonable; the chinese people who immigrated to Taiwan were from different regions of southern China, and their dialects influence one another as time goes by.

Also, in this website I've found the Taiwanese pronunciation of 箴言. 箴言 is the only phrase coming to my mind with the character 箴. This term is rare for the daily usage, unless for a priest.
Last edited by azhong on 2022-01-09, 4:37, edited 1 time in total.

do_shahbaz
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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2022-01-09, 4:33

Turns out that the library I am subscribed to does not offer access to the article :(
Does anyone have access to CNKI or any other Chinese pdf-hosting websites? (Most pdfs in the latter are free, but signing up thereon requires a Chinese phone number.

azhong wrote:According to the table, my Taiwanese pronunciation seems to a mixture of the three...
It's reasonable; the chinese people who immigrated to Taiwan were from different regions of southern china, and the dialects influence one another here.


Sounds reminiscent of the formation of Australian English, if you ask me..

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby do_shahbaz » 2022-01-25, 8:24

Managed to find in 福建省志 (1998) what would probably be the most comprehensive pair of Hokkien lexical sets out there. The table contains a comparison of phonemic realisations of six accents of Hokkien, but I have omitted Lingna 龍巖 on purpose because the lect seems to me a different sort altogether (perhaps a transitionary lect from Hokkien into Hakka or one of the inland Min languages?)

Image

A diasystem encompassing Amoy, Coanciu, and Cingciu would take more or less 93 lexical sets, seven more than the number of rhymes in Cingciu.

By the way, Wikimedia has a map of Hokkien accents in the Mainland and Taiwan, but none for those in Southeast Asia / Lamyu 南洋. I made a sketch of one for a change, based on Lindsay's A Reworking of Chinese Language Classification:

Image

Pink : Amoy
Blue : Cingciu (S)
Red : Coanciu (N)
Green : Hakka (non-Min)

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-03-17, 21:13

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this!
azhong wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Here are my answers for the Lesson 2 exercise on p. 46:

I saw this practice exercise. If anyone of you give me a English translation of these sentences, I can give an audio recording. I tried to read them but am unsure of some characters.

Or you can also give me some other sentences of which you need an audio recording in Taiwanese.

Edit:
https://youtu.be/CgNetU6WcMM
1. Lín ū chî* bô͘?
1) Ū, góan ū chî*.
2) Bô, góan bô chî*.

I think lín is supposed to mean 你们 and góan is supposed to mean 我们.
2. Che sī chheh, sī bô͘?
1) Sī, che sī chheh.
2) M̄ sī, che m̄ sī chheh.

I think chheh here is 册 (in Mandarin, 书) 'book'.
3. Chhía* kõoh lâi chē.

This is supposed to mean 'please come again', literally 'please again come to sit'. I think the characters for these words in Simplified Chinese are 请阁来坐. The book translates this to Mandarin as 再来坐/再光临.

I'm skipping #4 because you understood it perfectly! (They say "do you want to eat?" which I think is misleading).
5. Lí ài chia̍h pn̄g bô͘?
1) Ài, góa ài chia̍h-pn̄g.
2) Bô ài, góa bô ài chia̍h-pn̄g. (Trick questions! I knew it!)

This one was hard for me because the book just says, "Do you like rice? Yes, I do like rice. No, I don't like rice" when they mean whether you like to eat rice.
6. CGóa chhía* lí chia̍h kóe-chí.

I think this is supposed to be 我请你吃果子 (kóe-chí 果子 meaning 'fruit' like 水果 in Mandarin). In English, they say, "Let me treat you to some fruit."
Góa bô ài chia̍h, to-sīa. (Not sure whether this is correct or not. They say this in the opposite order: To-sīa, góa bô ài chia̍h.

I just wanted to say thank you for answering my question about the order!
7. I bô chî*; góa ū gō͘ -cha̍p-peh kho͘; lí ū lõa-chē chî*?

I think the 汉字 for this are: 伊无钱, 我有五十八块, 你有偌济(钱)?

In Mandarin: 他没钱,我有五十八块, 你有多少(钱)?

In English: He has no money; I have $58; how much do you have?
Góa ū káu-cha̍p-chhit kho͘.

我有九十七块 'I have $97.'
księżycowy wrote:5. Góa ū siap-sì kho͘.

Siap-sì kho͘ is 四十四块 ($44).
7. Che ài pe̍h-káu kho͘.
8. Lāu-su, to-siā.
¶ A note for correction: i didn't read the subject of the 2nd sentence correctly. What I've read is "Gua"(I), not "i"(he/she).
https://youtu.be/9QK0KyDcJ_U

Pe̍h-káu is 八九, i.e. 'eight or nine'.

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-03-18, 1:15

vijayjohn wrote:I think ... góan is supposed to mean 我们.
Really? I pronounce 我們(not including the listener) in a way more like gún. (And the 我們 including the listener is something like lán. (It's just like in Indonesian kami and kita but I've forgotten which is which.)

BTW, have you learned that each tone in Taiwanese will sometimes changes to separate substitution? It'll be very difficult to get used to it when you come to that stage.

It has a rule, complex though. And I've not totally understood it yet, either. I won't talk too much so as not to have scared.

E.g.:
1. Lín ū chîn bô͘?
will be pronounced like
Lin ù chîn bô͘?

1) Ū, góan ū chîn.
-> Ū, goan ù chîn.
2) Bô, góan bô chîn.
-> Bô, goan bō chîn.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-03-18, 1:36

azhong wrote:BTW, have you learned that each tone in Taiwanese will sometimes changes to separate substitution?

Yes.

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-03-18, 1:50

vijayjohn wrote:5. Lí ài chia̍h pn̄g bô͘?

Literally, "you love eat rice/meal not"?

7. I bô chî*; góa ū gō͘ -cha̍p-peh kho͘; lí ū lõa-chē chî*?
I think the 汉字 for this are: 伊无钱, 我有五十八块, 你有偌济*(钱)?

* I think most Taiwanese don't recognize these terms just like me. Thank you for telling me.

So, the pronunciation of "錢 money" is written as "chi*" but not something like "chin? I am not well familiar with the written system yet.

Thank you for teaching me those terms I didn't know, Vijaya.

Off Topic
Vj, do you know the answer if I ask you why you posted and said something like "Besides, Right.na. didn't say he wants to change the chain"? What did you really intend to do or say? One possible answer is, for example, you just seize a chane to interact with Linguaphile, or "you're not the host, azhong, and this is not what you can step in". You don't even need tell me the answer, Vj, I just invite you to have a inner look. The more you understand your every emotion and thought, the better you can respond precisely and calmly.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-03-18, 2:39

azhong wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:5. Lí ài chia̍h pn̄g bô͘?

Literally, "you love eat rice/meal not"?

Yes.
So, the pronunciation of "錢 money" is written as "chi*" but not something like "chin? I am not well familiar with the written system yet.

Ah, yes, chin is correct in Pe̍h-ōe-jī (白话字), which is the more common system. In this book, they use * instead of n. I don't know why.
Off Topic
Vj, do you know the answer if I ask you why you posted and said something like "Besides, Right.na. didn't say he wants to change the chain"? What did you really intend to do or say? One possible answer is, for example, you just seize a chane to interact with Linguaphile, or "you're not the host, azhong, and this is not what you can step in". You don't even need tell me the answer, Vj, I just invite you to have a inner look. The more you understand your every emotion and thought, the better you can respond precisely and calmly.

I'm sorry to see that you felt bad about what I said. I didn't mean to embarrass you or make you feel bad; I was just trying to support what Linguaphile said. I don't think anyone thought you did anything wrong. Although he said he didn't want the chain to change, he said that more than a week ago and only once when I was a little worried about it and specifically asked him. I'm not sure whether anyone remembers that, so I just wanted to offer a friendly reminder. Anyone could have forgotten that he said that, and it isn't very easy to see that he said that in the thread since it is already eight pages long. I didn't write an explanation until now because I wasn't sure whether you wanted one, but since you've asked, I'm writing one here. I apologize again, and I hope this helps at least a little bit!

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-03-18, 6:21

vijayjohn wrote:...

Off Topic
1. I didn't feel bad. I just feel embarrassed. And I had put it down after my explanation. A situation like this would be more serious to me when I was younger but is just a piece of cake now. (Actually it doesn'tn't embarrass me so much, TBH; I just took it as an opportunity to discuss your post with u, since your posts seem a hot issue among the regulars here XD. See, again, I had a good intention.)

2. I did read your invitation to Linguaphile and HER response. I just tried to invite her again. She might change her mind, isn't that so? ^_^ At least I hope she would.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby OldBoring » 2022-03-18, 11:40

vijayjohn wrote:
azhong wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:5. Lí ài chia̍h pn̄g bô͘?

Literally, "you love eat rice/meal not"?

Yes.

AFAIK Hokkien uses 爱 in the sense of "to want"... azhong can you confirm if I'm wrong?

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-03-18, 12:52

OldBoring wrote:AFAIK Hokkien uses 爱 in the sense of "to want"... azhong can you confirm if I'm wrong?

For "to want", there is another word, 欲 /beh/.

For the pronunciation around something like /aí/, there are at least two words:
"To love" 愛 in Taiwanese is /aì/.
"To need/ must" is pronounced something like /aí/. I dont know it's character and thus can't find it's correct spelling. I think this is what you are talking about.

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Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-03-18, 14:03

OldBoring wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
azhong wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:5. Lí ài chia̍h pn̄g bô͘?

Literally, "you love eat rice/meal not"?

Yes.

AFAIK Hokkien uses 爱 in the sense of "to want"... azhong can you confirm if I'm wrong?

This is what the book itself claims. It also says that it means 'to like/love, to desire, to need/require/cost, must'. It is transcribed as ài just as in Mandarin, though of course the pronunciation is different.

azhong

Re: Hokkien Study Group

Postby azhong » 2022-06-06, 11:49

https://youtu.be/cGG9Rv_1lpA

Taiwanese: 一个 無夠, 你看, 這 个 已經 破 去 矣。 (From pp24, Taiwanese Grammer)
Chı̍t ê bô kàu, lí khòan, chit ê í-keng phòa--khì--ah.

Manrarin: 一個不夠, 你看, 這個已經破了。
Yíge bú gòu, nĭ kàn, zhège yĭ jīng pòle.
► Show Spoiler

(en): One [of them] is not enough. Look! This one is already broken.

一个 chı̍t ê: 一個 one
► Show Spoiler

無夠bô kàu: 不夠; not enough
你看lí khòan: 你看 [lit. you look] look
這个chit ê: 這個; this
个:個; (a general measure word)
*Q a note: In my pronunciation, seemingly, "這chit" remains its original tone and keeps unchanged here. But isn't "這个" a phrase just like "一个"? I don't know.
已經í-keng: 已經 already
破去phòa--khì:破 ; broken
► Show Spoiler

ah*: 了; (completed action marker)

My different pronunciation:
: ā (item 3 in http://ip194097.ntcu.edu.tw/TG/jitian/chhajt.asp)

księżycowy wrote:...


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