Wenyan

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raoul2
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Wenyan

Postby raoul2 » 2016-10-26, 18:21

Do you know if tonal samdhi (3 becomes 2 before 3) is applied when reading classical chinese aloud?

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OldBoring
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Re: Wenyan

Postby OldBoring » 2016-10-30, 5:17

Yes, as people usually read Classical Chinese with modern Mandarin pronunciation.

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Re: Wenyan

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-01-28, 19:23

OldBoring wrote:Yes, as people usually read Classical Chinese with modern Mandarin pronunciation.

Don't people read it using the pronunciation from other modern dialects/language varieties anymore? Or is this becoming more rare due to those language varieties dying out?

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Re: Wenyan

Postby Karavinka » 2017-10-13, 17:25

vijayjohn wrote:
OldBoring wrote:Yes, as people usually read Classical Chinese with modern Mandarin pronunciation.

Don't people read it using the pronunciation from other modern dialects/language varieties anymore? Or is this becoming more rare due to those language varieties dying out?


Quite late a response, but people who read Wenyan do so in whichever variety of phonetics they feel most comfortable in, because... compared to the actual Old or Middle Chinese phonetics, everyone's wrong anyways. I know there are still many Southern Chinese readers who insist the Wenyan poetry should be read in theirs, as the intended poetic structures such as rhyme are better represented in their phonetics than in Mandarin. Korea and Japan still read them in their ways, and I assume the same for the Vietnamese Han-Nom readers.

Pinyin and Jyutping automatically generated. I know 説 should not be shuō because it's a textual variant of 悅 in this context, but I'm not going to fix it because I'm lazy and I can't touch Canto in the first place. Should still suffice as an example. Hopefully.


Wenyan
子曰。 「学而時習之。不亦説乎。 有朋自遠方来。不亦楽乎。 人不知而不慍。不亦君子乎。」

Mandarin
Zǐ yuē. `Xué ér shí xí zhī. Bù yì shuō hū. Yǒupéng zì yuǎnfāng lái. Bù yì lè hū. Rén bùzhī ér bù yùn. Bù yì jūnzǐ hū.'

Cantonese
zi2 joek6 。 「 hok6 ji4 si4 zaap6 zi1 。bat1 jik6 syut3 fu4 。 jau5 pang4 zi6 jyun5 fong1 loi4 。bat1 jik6 lok6 fu4 。 jan4 bat1 zi1 ji4 bat1 wan3 。bat1 jik6 gwan1 zi2 fu4 。」

Korean
자왈. 학이시습지. 불역열호. 유붕자원방래. 불역락호. 인부지불원. 불역군자호.
ja wal. hak i si seup ji. bul yeok yeol ho. yu bung ja won bang rae. bul yeok rak ho. in bu ji bul won. bul yeok gun ja ho.

Japanese
子曰く、 「学びて時に之を習ふ。亦説(よろこ)ばしからずや。 朋有り、遠方より来たる。亦楽しからずや。 人知らずして慍(うら)みず、亦君子ならずや。」
shi iwaku, manabite tokini korewo manabu, mata yorokobashikarazuya. tomo ari, enbouyori kitaru, mata tanosikarazuya. hito sirazusite uramizu, mata kunshi narazuya.



Long post short, do whatever you feel comfortable. You can't go any wronger than the Japanese.
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Re: Wenyan

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-07, 22:01

Karavinka wrote:Long post short, do whatever you feel comfortable. You can't go any wronger than the Japanese.

:lol:

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Re: Wenyan

Postby OldBoring » 2018-01-08, 10:04

Shit... I expected the Japanese to copy the kanji one by one and go full-on'yomi at least for Classical Chinese...
That looks more like a translation.

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Re: Wenyan

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-01-08, 20:42

Tbh, I expected something a bit like that, too (not full on'yomi, though). Maybe there are other things that the Japanese read in ways that are more faithful to the original Classical Chinese? Idk.

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Re: Wenyan

Postby atalarikt » 2018-05-11, 10:18

Karavinka wrote:Wenyan
子曰。 「学而時習之。不亦説乎。 有朋自遠方来。不亦楽乎。 人不知而不慍。不亦君子乎。」

Mandarin
Zǐ yuē. `Xué ér shí xí zhī. Bù yì shuō hū. Yǒupéng zì yuǎnfāng lái. Bù yì lè hū. Rén bùzhī ér bù yùn. Bù yì jūnzǐ hū.'

Cantonese
zi2 joek6 。 「 hok6 ji4 si4 zaap6 zi1 。bat1 jik6 syut3 fu4 。 jau5 pang4 zi6 jyun5 fong1 loi4 。bat1 jik6 lok6 fu4 。 jan4 bat1 zi1 ji4 bat1 wan3 。bat1 jik6 gwan1 zi2 fu4 。」

Korean
자왈. 학이시습지. 불역열호. 유붕자원방래. 불역락호. 인부지불원. 불역군자호.
ja wal. hak i si seup ji. bul yeok yeol ho. yu bung ja won bang rae. bul yeok rak ho. in bu ji bul won. bul yeok gun ja ho.

Japanese
子曰く、 「学びて時に之を習ふ。亦説(よろこ)ばしからずや。 朋有り、遠方より来たる。亦楽しからずや。 人知らずして慍(うら)みず、亦君子ならずや。」
shi iwaku, manabite tokini korewo manabu, mata yorokobashikarazuya. tomo ari, enbouyori kitaru, mata tanosikarazuya. hito sirazusite uramizu, mata kunshi narazuya.

Here's the Pe̍h-ōe-jī for the Wenyan (automatically generated from this converter).
(Taiwanese) Hokkien
chí o̍at . “ ha̍k jî sî si̍p chi . put ia̍h soat ho͘ . ū pêng chū hn̄g hong lâi . put ia̍h 楽ho͘ . lâng m̄-chai jî put ùn . put ia̍h kun chí ho͘ . ”
As you can see, there's still some errors here and there, such as a character not transliterated.
وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِلْعَالِمِينَ۝
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (Ar-Rum: 22)

Jika saya salah, mohon diperbaiki. If I make some mistake(s), please correct me.
Forever indebted to Robert A. Blust for his contributions to Austronesian linguistics


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