Questions about Chinese / 关于中文的问题 / 關於中文的問題

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Pangu
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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Pangu » 2014-10-28, 20:15

Lowena wrote:No one? :(

I don't think we have too many Cantonese experts here, mostly Mandarin.

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Lauren » 2014-10-28, 20:29

Pangu wrote:
Lowena wrote:No one? :(

I don't think we have too many Cantonese experts here, mostly Mandarin.

Yeah, I guess so. I was hoping a Mandarin speaker would maybe be able to identify the tones? I don't know. :P
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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Pangu » 2014-10-28, 20:35

Lowena wrote:
Pangu wrote:
Lowena wrote:No one? :(

I don't think we have too many Cantonese experts here, mostly Mandarin.

Yeah, I guess so. I was hoping a Mandarin speaker would maybe be able to identify the tones? I don't know. :P

Mandarin and Cantonese tones are quite different. This is not the prettiest chart but it shows the difference:

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Lauren » 2014-10-28, 20:49

I know they have different tones, but I was thinking that maybe someone whose native language (or speaks it fluently otherwise) is Mandarin would be able to learn to recognize the tones in Cantonese relatively easily since their native language is tonal. Though maybe I'm wrong.

Like with that chart above; I recited the tones in order from tone 1 to 6 on that chart (with the 3 extra "level tones for closed syllables" at the end) and I figured with that knowledge and being used to tones, one could get an idea of if I was doing them well or not. :)

Here are the words I said in order:

saam1, gau2, sei3, ling4, ng5, yi6, chat7, baat8, luk9
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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby OldBoring » 2014-11-01, 8:02

Unfortunately, even though I can open the web page, I can't listen to the recording. It seems soundcloud doesn't work too well in China. And as Pangu said, here there aren't many experts in Cantonese (I advice you to visit some forums about Cantonese).
But it seems that you have abandoned Cantonese for Hmong. :)

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Lauren » 2014-11-01, 17:40

Youngfun wrote:Unfortunately, even though I can open the web page, I can't listen to the recording. It seems soundcloud doesn't work too well in China. And as Pangu said, here there aren't many experts in Cantonese (I advice you to visit some forums about Cantonese).
But it seems that you have abandoned Cantonese for Hmong. :)

Well I did say I wasn't seriously learning Cantonese at the time, and I still think I'd be more likely to learn Cantonese than Hmong. :P

me wrote:but until I start learning Cantonese seriously (if I do)

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-11-25, 10:06

What Mandarin dialect reads z as zh and x as a soft s instead a soft sh?

I know how Taiwanese people read certain consonants, but reading gongzuo as gongzhuo is a novelty to me. :)

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby ling » 2014-11-25, 12:19

Dr. House wrote:I know how Taiwanese people read certain consonants, but reading gongzuo as gongzhuo is a novelty to me. :)

I could easily see a Taiwanese person saying that, hypercorrecting when enunciating.
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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-11-25, 16:34

I see. So the speaker is trying to speak properly and actually goes a little bit too far. :) Xiexie.

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Pangu » 2014-11-25, 17:43

Dr. House wrote:I see. So the speaker is trying to speak properly and actually goes a little bit too far. :) Xiexie.

Sometimes it's that, but sometimes it's also a Taiwanese may not know whether a sound should be tongue-rolling or not (z or zh, s or sh, c or ch) so they choose the tongue-rolling sound just to be safe.

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-11-25, 19:33

Pangu wrote:
Dr. House wrote:I see. So the speaker is trying to speak properly and actually goes a little bit too far. :) Xiexie.

Sometimes it's that, but sometimes it's also a Taiwanese may not know whether a sound should be tongue-rolling or not (z or zh, s or sh, c or ch) so they choose the tongue-rolling sound just to be safe.


Yeah, that's what I had in mind. She's probably speaking without the zh, sh, ch sounds at home and wanted to sound formal for the purpose of the course.

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-12-05, 19:14

I think a Taiwanese consulted Dr. House on his Chinese performance. That's why he says: "never" like that, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fps6Loxmn7o

The other guy speaks horribly, though. (这是中文? :) )

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Pangu » 2014-12-06, 3:04

Dr. House wrote:I think a Taiwanese consulted Dr. House on his Chinese performance. That's why he says: "never" like that, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fps6Loxmn7o

The other guy speaks horribly, though. (这是中文? :) )

Unfortunately it said this video is not available in my country (United States). How did he say "never"?

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby ling » 2014-12-06, 3:36

No! my ears! My ears! They speak terribly.

He said "chong lai bu hui" (with horrible tones)
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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby OldBoring » 2014-12-06, 3:48

Most of what he says is incomprenhensible!
I think he said 我从来不会破坏秘密但是 as 我chong来不会破hui 秘密但xi。。。
Tones are all wrong obviously and pronunciation is wrong and marbled.
It's weird that he says 秘密 unstressed (the main object of the sentence) followed with no pause by 但是 stressed (but)...
The phrasing is also weird... 破坏秘密?for "breach the confidentiality"?

@Pangu, you can download the video using http://www.clipconverter.cc as I did.

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-12-06, 18:15

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Were the sentences gramattically correct? I think it's okay to say 他们把精神病看得很严重 , right? (even though he mumbled a lot...)

What about this video? Please, pay no attention to the subtitles, because they don't seem to agree with what they're saying. I'm pretty sure it's Taiwanese Mandarin. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDtVT4cpXFs

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Pangu » 2014-12-06, 18:27

Dr. House wrote:Were the sentences gramattically correct? I think it's okay to say 他们把精神病看得很严重 , right? (even though he mumbled a lot...)

It's right.

Dr. House wrote:What about this video? Please, pay no attention to the subtitles, because they don't seem to agree with what they're saying. I'm pretty sure it's Taiwanese Mandarin. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDtVT4cpXFs

It does sound more Taiwanese than mainland to me. I can only make out half of what "Black Dynamite" said. But from what I can understand, it sounds legit, as in someone fluent in Chinese wrote the script.

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-12-06, 19:32

The funny thing is when I learned some simple sentences phonetically, it was more authentic, than what many courses teach. I was praised for saying: "Zhe ge nühaizi zai he shui.", even though I just parrotted back what I learned the other day. But many courses are like: WOOOOOOOO XIAAAAANG QUUUU ZHOOOOOONGGUOOOOOO. As if they had some kind of brain damage. I understand the tones are important, but isn't it more important to learn the melody of whole sentences, rather than one syllable words? I remember when I was dabbling with Vietnamese, I could say a few short sentences like "mot dieu thuoc la" - a cigarette, but whenever I tried to say something longer, it was no longer Vietnamese. :( I guess it has something to do with the tone sandhi?

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Pangu » 2014-12-06, 19:47

Dr. House wrote:The funny thing is when I learned some simple sentences phonetically, it was more authentic, than what many courses teach. I was praised for saying: "Zhe ge nühaizi zai he shui.", even though I just parrotted back what I learned the other day. But many courses are like: WOOOOOOOO XIAAAAANG QUUUU ZHOOOOOONGGUOOOOOO. As if they had some kind of brain damage. I understand the tones are important, but isn't it more important to learn the melody of whole sentences, rather than one syllable words?

Usually in beginner courses, the teacher or recordings would stress each syllable so the student can make sure they understand how each syllable is pronounced correctly. Much like how a beginner art student will learn basic sketching before how to paint.

However, more advanced courses should have more fluid conversations.

With that said, I find out majority of entry-level Chinese leaners I've personally encountered do a decent job when they simply repeat what I say. However, they start to fumble when they try to read on their own when they think too much about tones and sounds.

So I believe reading slowly and over-emphasize on each syllable is important for beginners, but like any kind of crotch, once you feel like you no longer need it, stop using it.

Dr. House wrote:I remember when I was dabbling with Vietnamese, I could say a few short sentences like "mot dieu thuoc la" - a cigarette, but whenever I tried to say something longer, it was no longer Vietnamese. :( I guess it has something to do with the tone sandhi?

I'm not sure what that means? BTW, I'm also learning Vietnamese from my wife :D

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Re: Questions about Chinese

Postby Hent » 2014-12-06, 20:03

Oh okay. Thanks.

I meant when I said a longer sentence, it wasn't comprehensible to the Vietnamese anymore. Most probably a mixture of wrong tones and mispronounced vowels. I didn't study the language for more than a month, though. Every now and then I spot a word in random Vietnamese conversation, but those are just my lucky days. :) I find listening considerably easier than speaking. No matter if it's Chinese, French or English.


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