Discussion Group

[Psi-Lord]

I wonder, what is the correct phonetic transcription for the "ri" and "yu" phonemes in Chinese?

The chart at http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/chin_chart_ie.htm has /ʐɨ/ (/z`1/) and /y/, respectively.

[alois]

OK, but anyone who has already heard the sound of "yu" knows that it's far from that /y/ transcription, which is the same for German ü or French u. "Yu" is pronounced with the tongue almost touching that (post-)alveolar region. Perhaps IPA doesn't have a proper sign for the phoneme at all. Moreover, I don't think (/z`1/) properly represents "ri" either.

[Psi-Lord]

Even if not strict, that seems to be quite a general practice—http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese/bpmf.htm gives 迂 [yū] as an example of /y/, and 日 [rì] as an example for the consonant /ʐ/ (/z`/); they seem to treat the i as /i/, though. Maybe it's just one of those conventions followed more because they're indeed conventions than because they reflect the reality closely.

[勺园之鬼]

To answer the first question, and to say I agree with your conclusion, I'd say that there is no accurate phonetic transcription for these sound patterns.

Pinyin "yu" indeed doesn't sound like the /y/ used in french and german (for instance), and IPA probably lacks this sound in its list.
Also, there are many dialectal differences in chinese, so even if the standard was defined, there are still differences between several speakers of the standard language; the IPA, like pinyin, being a rough indication on how to classify these sounds. The fact is that pinyin is latin alphabet adapted to chinese with its own values for every letter, when IPA tries to cover all languages of the world using a somewhat limited number of phonemes, thus comparing it with sounds in other languages, therefore there are probably quite a lot of inaccuracies. And if you add to that that some people hear differences between sounds other believe to be the same...

To conclude, I'll say that no real attempt to apply IPA to chinese has been a success so far, Sung's attempts included, even if I know that me saying that might get that guy from Glossika to bitch at me once more...

I believe that I just wrote quite a lot of nonsense (or at least I didn't make myself clear) as I'm falling asleep.

[Luís]

Have a look at :

http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/Cathay_Cafe/IPA_NPA_4.htm

ri would be [ɻʅ], yu would be [y]. (but [ɻ] is interchangeable with [ʐ])

That's how I learnt it, that's what you find on books edited by the Beijing Culture and Language University.

Not every sound is exactly the same in all languages that have it. It doesn't matter if [y] in Mandarin is slightly different than French [y] then (don't you think China has good enough linguists and phoneticists that know what they're doing? )

And IPA is not like pinyin. Pinyin is not even very phonetic*. The IPA has a limited set of characters + tons of diacritics to go with it. The possible combinations are immense. Chinese isn't that special that it can't be represented in it...

* As you're going to complain about this statement, I thought it'd be better to give some examples:

- 'i' represents 2 distinct sounds ("ji" vs "zhi")
- 'e' represents at least 5 distinct sounds ("ei" vs "wen" vs "pie" vs "er" vs "weng")
- 'ao' stands for 'au'
- 'iu' stands for 'iou'
- 'ui' stands for 'uei'
- [j] and [w] are sometimes represented as i/u, others as y/w
- yi/wu/etc. are the same as i/u/etc.
- 'r' stands for 2 distinct sounds ("ren" vs "er")
- 'ian' is pronounced as 'ien'
- etc.

So, the IPA is still a bit more accurate than pinyin

[勺园之鬼]

Not every sound is exactly the same in all languages that have it. It doesn't matter if [y] in Mandarin is slightly different than French [y] then (don't you think China has good enough linguists and phoneticists that know what they're doing? )

Very few people use IPA in China for Chinese. This is something you'll meet more when seeing foreign language books, as it's considered to be a thing for foreign language learners.

Pinyin is made of rules and conventions, and it's by far the best system ever created for chinese. Once you understand the basic rules of pinyin, it makes completely sense. Luis, once you know it like Hefestos, Psi-Lord or myself, you'll understand what it is about.

- 'i' represents 2 distinct sounds ("ji" vs "zhi")

The series "zhi/chi/shi/ri" and "zi/ci/si" have a different sounds as it is specified in pinyin rules. In the same way that the sound in "ju/qu/xu" is not the same as "u" used with other initials.

- 'e' represents at least 5 distinct sounds ("ei" vs "wen" vs "pie" vs "er" vs "weng")

Hanyu pinyin doesn't work this way, the vowel compounds are to go together. "e" is the same sound when it goes by itself, when in other syllables it is influenced by initials and finales. Let me use colours to explain that: ei, wen,
pie, weng.
"e" in the same context will always be pronounced the same. I don't understand the fuss you make about it all. Maybe would you like a different vowel and/or lots of diacritics to write the differences? Pinyin's goal was to be simple and easy to study. The way vowels evolve in certain environment make the evolution of the pronunciation natural. For instance, once you manage to pronounce "e" correctly, and the finals "n" and "ng", you will be able "en" and "eng".
"ei", "ie" are different sounds as they are different vowel compounds.
"er" is the retroflex and therefore a special case by itself. Note it's written only "r" when it's not standalone (ex: 一点儿 yīdiǎnr)

- 'ao' stands for 'au'

That's not true. It's not a "a+u" diphthong but a "a+o" diphthong. Chinese is not a romance language.

- 'iu' stands for 'iou'
- 'ui' stands for 'uei'

Right. These are abbreviations specified in hanyu pinyin rules. "ui" is short for "uei" (written "wei" when there is no initial), "iu" is short for "iou" (written "you" when there is no initial), and another one you forgot, "un" is short for "uen" (written "wen" when there is no initial).
As you just saw, "i" is made "y" and "u" is made "w" when they're in a vowel compound and that there is no initial. If they're the only vowel, "i" is made "yi" and "u" is made "wu". This "yi/wu" or "y/w" switch instead of "i/u" exist because of pinyin spelling rules: so that beginners like you cannot confuse words like for instance 修 xiū and 西屋 xīwū, which without that would be written the same in pinyin. Keep in mind that one of the basic rules in pinyin is that structures of two or three syllables that indicate a complete concept are linked.

- [j] and [w] are sometimes represented as i/u, others as y/w

??

- yi/wu/etc. are the same as i/u/etc.

I explained that just before.

- 'r' stands for 2 distinct sounds ("ren" vs "er")

As I just said, "er" is a special convention. "r" in other syllables is always pronounced the same.

- 'ian' is pronounced as 'ien'

Imagine if it was written "ien". In pinyin you have "uen" which is because of the spelling rules stated before, spelt "un". "ien" would because of the standard spelling rules be written "in" (spelling rules and abbreviations matter the most!) Also there is in pinyin no "ieng", and even if its pronunciation evolved, the vowel compound "ian" is still considered to be the counterpart of "iang". This is why this was preferred to use "ian" instead of using "ie" + "n". This is more a matter of traditional convention prior to pinyin than anything else. Hanyu pinyin was elabored based on chinese phonology studies, and this is only fair for the chinese to follow their own conventions when creating a romanisation for their very own language...

I invite you too look for resources where all the rules of hanyu pinyin are explained.

[E}{pugnator]

Ho do you pronounce the r after a n? Like JM wrote yidianr ... I saw that the n would be silent, is that true?

[alois]

How do you pronounce the r after a n? Like JM wrote yidianr ... I saw that the n would be silent, is that true?

Yeah, the "n" becomes silent:

dian + er = "diar".

(Although you're more likely to find it written just as "dian" 点, just changing the pronunciation).

[Luís]

Very few people use IPA in China for Chinese. This is something you'll meet more when seeing foreign language books, as it's considered to be a thing for foreign language learners.

Isn't it like that pretty much everywhere?

Pinyin is made of rules and conventions, and it's by far the best system ever created for chinese. Once you understand the basic rules of pinyin, it makes completely sense. Luis, once you know it like Hefestos, Psi-Lord or myself, you'll understand what it is about.

Dear Junming, I appreciate your thorough explanation of how pinyin works, but I already know it. If you read me carefully you'll see I didn't say pinyin doesn't have rules or that it isn't logic or even that it's not good to transcribe Chinese pronunciation. What I said was simply that pinyin isn't phonetic (because a) one letter can represent many sounds and b) one sound can be represented by several different letters). Because of that, it can't be put on the same level as the IPA, which is a phonetic alphabet and can be used for several unrelated languages. Pinyin, on the other hand, only works for Chinese. The fact that it isn't completely phonetic doesn't make pinyin better or worse (in many ways it would be worse if it were more phonetic as you pointed out) But still, these are two very different things. When one wants to accurately represent Chinese sounds one uses the IPA, not pinyin, just like if we we wanted to represent Spanish sounds we'd use the IPA (or some other phonetic alphabet) and not Spanish spelling...

The series "zhi/chi/shi/ri" and "zi/ci/si" have a different sounds as it is specified in pinyin rules. In the same way that the sound in "ju/qu/xu" is not the same as "u" used with other initials.

You confuse things. Taking your example, [u] never occurs after j/q/x, so the Chinese, wise as they are, decided that they should use u after these letters for the sound [y]. After n or l, for instance, both [u] and [y] can occur, so there you use u/ü to differentiate. It's logical, it's practical, but not quite phonetic... [y] ends up being written either as ü, u or yu. In the IPA you write it [y] always. I hope that you can see the difference between a romanization system (such as pinyin) and a phonetic alphabet (such as the IPA)...

In the rest of your post, you basically keep on talking about pinyin's rules and how letters change their sounds according to context, so it's not relevant. I too believe Hanyu Pinyin is the best romanization system for Mandarin (you don't remember us having discussed Hanyu Pinyin vs Tongyong Pinyin vs other systems in the chat once?). But I again stress that a romanization system and a phonetic alphabet are very distinct things. You can write something in Chinese using either Hanyu Pinyin or let's say Wade-Giles system and they'd be different, but the IPA would always be the same.

That's not true. It's not a "a+u" diphthong but a "a+o" diphthong. Chinese is not a romance language.

It's both (see the website I posted before). However, I believe the most common way is with 'u'. That's how you see it in most books and that's how I perceive it too.

??

I meant that the semi-vowels [j] and [w] are sometimes represented by i/u and sometimes (at the beginning of the syllable) as y/w. pie vs ye / cuo vs wo.

And please, next time try to read people's posts carefully before assuming too much.

[勺园之鬼]

Dear Junming, I appreciate your thorough explanation of how pinyin works, but I already know it.

I am not supposed to know what everybody knows about everything. I gave that explanation about pinyin because I think this is useful to the people who happen to browse this forum; if you believe it is not of any help for you this is not necessary to complain. About your exhaustive knowledge of Chinese, which you started a few months ago, I have no idea about what you are up to right now. As you said, we had a conversation on the chat about the different romanisation systems used in Chinese; so you probably remember that you ignored my questions about your studying Chinese. Even if you managed to learn a lot during these last months, I'm quite sad to see that you adopt that widespread custom amongst some persons in Unilang to become so fast a specialist of a language which you just began to study...

Also, I will ask you to go give advices and comments about things where they are needed. There is no room for such aggressivity here. If you manage to speak great Chinese someday, instead of commenting about the few little things you know, I'll be glad to see you here as a helper. Such posts whose only purpose is to "找麻烦" are not needed here. About as much as despising sentences like "I hope that you can see the difference between a romanization system (such as pinyin) and a phonetic alphabet (such as the IPA)...".

[Luís]

I am not supposed to know what everybody knows about everything. I gave that explanation about pinyin because I think this is useful to the people who happen to browse this forum; if you believe it is not of any help for you this is not necessary to complain.

As it is clear from my post (since I wrote that after quoting you), this was a reply to your:

Pinyin is made of rules and conventions, and it's by far the best system ever created for chinese. Once you understand the basic rules of pinyin, it makes completely sense. Luis, once you know it like Hefestos, Psi-Lord or myself, you'll understand what it is about.

in which you basically say I know nothing about pinyin. Besides, you wrote all that as reply to what I had written before. Although it's "useful to other people browsing the forum" in the end, I'm sure that wasn't the main purpose.

Even if you managed to learn a lot during these last months, I'm quite sad to see that you adopt that widespread custom amongst some persons in Unilang to become so fast a specialist of a language which you just began to study...

I don't consider myself a specialist in Chinese, far from it. Probably not even you, who know 100x more Chinese than I do would consider yourself a specialist. But this whole discussion is more focused on the IPA and phonetic representations than in the language itself. For many times here in the forum you have complained about how inaccurate phonetic transcriptions for Chinese were, but I don't see you proposing any alternatives. Coming back to the original question, which was regarding Chinese ü, what do you propose? Obviously you can't say Chinese ü is pinyin ü as that adds no information. If you disagree that it's [y], then perhaps you can try and describe it more properly so that we can reach a conclusion of how we can represent this sound.

Also, I will ask you to go give advices and comments about things where they are needed. There is no room for such aggressivity here

.

Where was I aggressive? And why 找麻烦? Are we not discussing an issue here? Being a specialist in 找麻烦 yourself you should know how to recognize it.

About as much as despising sentences like "I hope that you can see the difference between a romanization system (such as pinyin) and a phonetic alphabet (such as the IPA)...".

Why so? Well, apparently you didn't, as you were putting both the IPA and pinyin on the same level...

[chicamalaya]

Hi! My name is Najwa and I'm from Malaysia. I'm learning chinese (mandarin) at university and for the next semester I'll continue with my chinese level 3. By the way, I still don't have any idea about this language, perhaps I don't practise to speak and write it much. And I'm really sad. I've few chinese friends here but they rather speak with me in malay/english. So, I was thinking about to practise to speak the common phrases that I almost use them in my class. I need your help, could you translate these for me in mandarin. I want it in the chinese chracters together with its hanyu pinyin. Thank you very much!

- I don't understand
- Could you repeat it again
- I don't get it
- When we have to pass up this exercise?
- I have question
- She's absent today
- I'm not finish it yet
- How to say ___ in mandarin?
- May I go to toilet?
- We have to do this by group or individual?
- Your handwriting is not clear to me

That's all. Actually I've plenty more questions, maybe later. I hope anyone coulp help me. I know mandarin is an easiest language, but maybe of its characters and tones make it too difficult to master, bye!

[Aymeric]

Salam alaykum Najwa!
mari saya tolong kamu tafsirkan ayat ini

- I don't understand
Wo bu mingbai or wo ting bu dong.
- Could you repeat it again
Qing ni zai shuo yi bian
- I don't get it
Wo bu mingbai
- When we have to pass up this exercise?
I'm not sure really
- I have question
Not sure
- She's absent today
Ta jintian bu zai.
- I'm not finish it yet
Wo hai mei jieshu ne.
- How to say ___ in mandarin?
Putonghua zenme shuo X?
- May I go to toilet?
Not sure...
- We have to do this by group or individual?
Too hard for me!
- Your handwriting is not clear to me
Too hard for me!

[chicamalaya]

Waalaikumussalam Aymeric
Thank you for reply me. I'm really appreciate it. I'm struggling to remember all those characters, too hard. Anyway, thank you very much!

Saya belajar bahasa cina kerana di Malaysia saya mempunyai kawan-kawan berbangsa cina. Juga kerana saya meminati drama-drama cina

[Aymeric]

Kebanyakan orang Cina di Malaysia bertutur dialek Kantonis, dan bukan Mandarin...

[chicamalaya]

Ya, memang benar kebanyakan orang disini bertutur dialek kantonis, tetapi bagi berita dan acara formal, mandarin digunakan. Cikgu saya mengajari saya mandarin, kerana ia adalah standard bagi bahasa cina keseluruhannya

Jaga diri!

[alois]

I tried some that Aymeric couldn't translate:

- I have question
Wo you yi ge wenti.
我有一个问题

- We have to do this by group or individual?
zhe dui haishi ziji yao zuo ne? (not sure at all)
这队还是自己要做呢？

- Your handwriting is not clear to me
Ni de shou xie wo bu tai dong.
你的手写我不太懂。

[Aymeric]

- I have question
Wo you yi ge wenti.
我有一个问题

I'm always confused about this one, because I feel like I'm saying "I have a problem"

As for the other two, it doesn't ring a bell sorry

[勺园之鬼]

What the boys gave is correct, just adding the tones in the pinyin, the characters and some other translations.

- I don't understand
我不明白 (wǒ bù míngbai) (in all circumstances)
or (if you can't understand something spoken) 我听不懂 (wǒ tīngbudǒng)
or (if you can't understand something written) 我看不懂 wǒ kànbudǒng
- Could you repeat it again
请你再说一遍 (qǐng nǐ zài shuō yībiàn)
- I don't get it
我不明白、我不太明白 (wǒ bù míngbai, wǒ bù tài míngbai)
- When we have to pass up this exercise?
(if "pass up" means "take" as I understand it)
我们什么时候（参加）考试？ (wǒmen shénme shíhou (cānjiā) kǎoshì?)
- I have question
我有一个问题 (wǒ yǒu yīgè wèntí)
- She's absent today
她今天不在 (tā jīntiān bùzài)
- I'm not finish it yet
(I have not finished it yet?)
我还没（有）作完 (wǒ hái méi(yǒu) zuòwán)
or 我还没（有）结束 (wǒ hái méi(yǒu) jiéshù)
- How to say ___ in mandarin?
（用）普通话（应该）怎么说 ____ ? ((yòng) pǔtōnghuà (yīnggāi) zěnme shuō ____?)
- May I go to toilet?
我可不可以去洗手间 (wǒ kěbùkěyǐ qù xǐshǒujiān)
我可不可以（去）上厕所 (wǒ kěbùkěyǐ (qù) shàng cèsuǒ)
- We have to do this by group or individual?
我们应该分组做还是个人做？ (wǒmen yīnggāi fēnzǔ zuò háishi gèrén zuò?)
- Your handwriting is not clear to me
你写的字我看不清楚 (nǐ xiě de zì wǒ kànbuqīngchǔ)

All of the answers are obviously subjective and you can change words in them, since most of the expressions are not idiomatic.

[caiweijie]

Non-Chinese are not allowed to take Japanese, because Japanese [supposedly] requires a previous knowledge of Chinese. Well, we all in Unilang know it's not all that necessary, right?

i live in the southernmost state of peninsular malaysia, which is just next to singapore. my house is able to get singapore tv reception so i keep in track of singapore's news.... well, singapore's flexible education system offers subjects that students can adapt to. by offering just one second language subject, students dun have to shoulder too much burden as the present system is oledi burdening enuf. anyway regarding the quote above, i think there is some sense of it. cos japanese comprises of 3 writing scripts, namely the hiragana, katakana and the kanji. the kanji is taken from chinese characters. furthermore, chinese grammar and japanese grammar are almost similar. so by making a rule that onli chinese can learn japanese does have some sense as chinese can relate to their mother tongue while learning japanese. others are unable to do so. i learnt japanese that way. although i disagree that the ministry doesnt encourage non-chinese to take up japanese, still i think probably it's for their own good cos it can be very pressurizing as s'pore's high-standard edu system is oledi giving much pressure to its students....