Hokkien Study Group [Split]

[do_shahbaz]

I don't know if this thread / study-group is still active, but would anyone care for readings and analyses of the famed Hokkien masterpiece The Tale of the Lychee Mirror or Lianking Ki 荔鏡記? I wish to see how far one can go with learning a language from literary works written therein.

[księżycowy]

As far as being active, I keep up with any new posts, but I can't say I'm learning Hokkien at the moment. Hopefully at some point this year, we'll see.

[azhong]

I don't know if this thread / study-group is still active, but would anyone care for readings and analyses of the famed Hokkien masterpiece The Tale of the Lychee Mirror or Lianking Ki 荔鏡記? I wish to see how far one can go with learning a language from literary works written therein.

I didn't know the work. I've found it on the internet. I am unsure if I can eventually read every sentence in Taiwanese, but even I can't do that, I guess I can still roughly understand the work in a Mandarin way. It's an opportunity for me to upgrade my Taiwanese. And l always love reading literature works; it's is my frequent way of learning English.

Therefore, count me in; I'd like to read it together with you.

[do_shahbaz]

And l always love reading literature works; it's is my frequent way of learning English.

I do hope the same applies to the study of other languages.

Here are some links to get us started:

https://www.douban.com/group/topic/1290 ... 447y3bes34

This one has some characters annotated in what I presume to be the 'standard' Taiwanese transliteration of Hokkien:
https://taiwanopera.moc.gov.tw/index/zh ... Video/5930

though I wish to experiment with a home-made transliteration for the same text.

Should I post my notes, transliteration, etc. of parts of the text on this very text, or would it be better to have a separate thread devoted to discussion thereof?

[azhong]

Here are some links to get us started:
https://www.douban.com/group/topic/1290 ... 447y3bes34
This one has some characters annotated in what I presume to be the 'standard' Taiwanese transliteration of Hokkien:
https://taiwanopera.moc.gov.tw/index/zh ... Video/5930

Should I post my notes, transliteration, etc. of parts of the text on this very text, or would it be better to have a separate thread devoted to discussion thereof?

I personally have no opinion to discuss here or to have a new thread.

...

I've quoted księżycowy. If he says nothing, I suggest you just start another new thread. For one reason I don't think either księżycowy or Vijayan would like to spend so much time to study a full Hikken literary work in 2022; for another reason, they can still join the new thread if they want, or you can merge the new thread back if they insist. Anyway, I feel they are nice and friendly, and I guess they won't mind whether we discuss here or in a new thread. (TBH, I am quite courious how many ULers can read the work in Chinese characters.)

I do expect you to share with me what context in what language you are reading for the work, and I'd like to see your notes if it's not too confidential. Than I can learn how to communicate based on your understanding.

I've seen you have a strong interest in comparing the pronunciations among branches of the Chinese dialect. I know nothing about it and can not contribute anything to it.

What I can provide, perhaps, is my personal understanding about this work, its culture background, and some other works related to it. But I'm not in this field; my college major was engineering.

And as for my personal study, I might use it to learn and practice some literary Taiwanese, and a practice exercise for English translation.

I've also found your second website, which I value it, too. I found another website possibly better than your first and just FYI:
NTU library website
(NTU, National Taiwan University, is one of the the best universities in Taiwan.)

[do_shahbaz]

I suggest you just start another new thread. For one reason I don't think either księżycowy or Vijayan would like to spend so much time to study a full Hikken literary work in 2022; for another reason, they can still join the new thread if they want, or you can merge the new thread back if they insist.

Now that you mention "literary work", I'm not sure whether to proceed with Lychee Mirror or with a 'scheme' I had in mind for some time: analysis of works written in Classical/Literary Chinese! Some works that I have in mind:

- Ho Chi Minh's Prison Diary
- the Ballad of Hua Mulan
- Sun Tzu's Art of War
- Wu Zetian's bibliography in the New Tang Chronicle
- Li Bai, etc.

Learning Literary Chinese would be a boon indeed at learning Chinese history, philosophy, etc. (cf. for instance item no. 4), you seem to master it better than (written) Hokkien, and there is a thread devoted to it. On the other hand, learning Hokkien would be useful for... bargaining for clothes and electronic appliances in Penang, Medan, and other coastal cities all across the western part of SEA? (jk no offence intended) Or should I do both?

I've seen you have a strong interest in comparing the pronunciations among branches of the Chinese dialect. I know nothing about it and can not contribute anything to it.

To be honest I can't quite decide which accent of Hokkien to adopt :d which is why I am currently working on an orthographical system that encodes all three major Hokkien accents (厦泉漳) at the same time.

[azhong]

Now that you mention "literary work", I'm not sure whether to proceed with Lychee Mirror or with a 'scheme' I had in mind for some time.

I am interested in both Hokkien language and Chinese literature. You can decide the order and we can change it later, too.

- Ho Chi Minh's Prison Diary
- the Ballad of Hua Mulan
- Sun Tzu's Art of War
- Wu Zetian's bibliography in the New Tang Chronicle
- Li Bai, etc.

(I have to google to understand these English Titles, so I justed noted them in Chinese for me:)
1- Ho Chi Minh's Prison Diary
胡志明獄中日記. I've never heard it before. I feel this book might be more related with Vietnam but not Chinese? The capital city of Vietnam is named after his name.

2- the Ballad of Hua Mulan
木蘭辭. It's taught (in Mandarin) in our junior high school and thus possibly well-remembered for all educated Taiwanese.

3- Sun Tzu's Art of War
孫子兵法. I heard it but never read it before. It's famous nowadays to be applied at business administration and also some other field maybe. It's original text in Wenyen is possibly difficult even for me. But I think it's not difficult to find translations into contemporary Chinese.

4- Wu Zetian's bibliography in the New Tang Chronicle
武則天傳 in 新唐書。Never read it before, either, and I guess it's quite historical more than literary. She is a famous empiror and there was a TV episodes telling about her stories when I was young.

5- Li Bai
李白, a great poet in the Tang Dynasty. His works are literary indeed.

We can read anything to learn together, whether it's China-related or not. But I think any one of them you listed will take months if you do really want to read it through.

Learning Literary Chinese would be a boon indeed at learning Chinese history, philosophy, etc. (cf. for instance item no. 4), you seem to master it better than (written) Hokkien, and there is a thread devoted to it.

I've read the thread days ago when you posted there. I can pronounce Confucius's sayings in Mandarin very well but I need to do some research if I want to read them in Taiwanese. I am wondering if you can upload your audio recording to share with me? Maybe we can start our Hokkien/Taiwanese study from that famous saying of Confucius.

► Show Spoiler

On the other hand, learning Hokkien would be useful for... bargaining for clothes and electronic appliances in Penang, Medan, and other coastal cities all across the western part of SEA? (jk no offence intended) Or should I do both?

I googled and then know the two cities you mentioned are not cities in China; Penang is in Malaysia and Medan, Indonesia. Maybe Hokkien are also widely spoken there; I am not sure.

[do_shahbaz]

I might as well post several links to aforementioned texts while we're at it.

I feel this book might be more related with Vietnam but not Chinese? The capital city of Vietnam is named after his name.

The book, as you may see in the first link written below, is 100% written in 文言, as Thành had been forbidden to write in Vietnamese (presumably chữ nôm 宁字喃) by the French authorities.

獄中日記: http://www.hannom.org.vn/detail.asp?param=1023&Catid=493
木蘭詩: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%9C%A8%E8%98%AD%E8%A9%A9
孫子兵法: https://zh.m.wikisource.org/zh/%E5%AD%AB%E5%AD%90%E5%85%B5%E6%B3%95
新唐書 卷四: https://zh.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%96%B0%E5%94%90%E6%9B%B8/%E5%8D%B7004
唐詩: https://zh.m.wikisource.org/zh/%E5%85%A8%E5%94%90%E8%A9%A9

Maybe Hokkien are also widely spoken there; I am not sure.

Indeed! In Medan, Riau, Johore, and Singapore amongst the 華人 community, and in Penang it is claimed that even Malays and Indians are picking up the language. Though in Singapore the usage of Hokkien has unfortunately decreased due to forced imposition of Mandarin by the Lee regime (look up "Speak Mandarin Campaign" if you wish to read more). I do believe that something similar had happened in Taiwan under Chiang Kai-Shek.

[do_shahbaz]

Here is a poem about the Wine Pixie (酒神仙曲); the subject of the poem is the reason for my choice of poet!

https://kknews.cc/culture/aagbqbx.html

[azhong]

1泉州腔 might suit better if you want by read 荔鏡記 according to a file I've read. The version we have is a mix of several dialects but 泉 dominates.

2 I find a UCLA website of 泉州腔, where there is an audio recording of 將進酒 among other recordings.
http://alt.reasoning.cs.ucla.edu/jinbo/ ... ZinZiu.php

This poem is great and I'd like to pore it over again, too. Now that we have an ready-made audio recording, maybe we can also start by studying it if you like. We can learn the poem and some pronunciation in 泉州腔.

I guess there are some more resources in the internet; I've never seriously went into the field. I believe we'll find them out later.

[księżycowy]

I've quoted księżycowy. If he says nothing, I suggest you just start another new thread. For one reason I don't think either księżycowy or Vijayan would like to spend so much time to study a full Hikken literary work in 2022; for another reason, they can still join the new thread if they want, or you can merge the new thread back if they insist. Anyway, I feel they are nice and friendly, and I guess they won't mind whether we discuss here or in a new thread. (TBH, I am quite courious how many ULers can read the work in Chinese characters.)

I can't speak for Vijay, but I would suggest a new thread for this. Especially since it seems to have broadened scope beyond just Taiwanese Hokkien.

[azhong]

Not very sure yet, but I think I am teased, again, by another Westerner who doesn't really want to study Chinese step by step seriously but just want to boast their in-the-air-castle understanding in Chinese.

1. I don't consider it realistic that a Chinese in their fundamental English level of just "This is not a pen; that is my hat" keeps talking about analyzing Shakespeare and Chaucer.

2. I have suggested him to start from either the Confucius saying he has posted the pronunciation and then suggested the poem by Li-Pei he loves. And Ks also clearly suggested him to start another thread. But what I've seen so far is that he did nothing related but just had another post mentioning about something in the level like a work by Virginia Woolf.

do_shahbaz, do place your foot on the ground and step forward on the road meters before you.

I have to say such a ULer really pollutes a precious thread where the other members are building their language stalk brick after brick, and do not deserve my precious help, either. Now I also agree he should leave this thread, for another reason. He is not the first Westerner who does so stupidly in this forum. Maybe they are just boasting adolescents I guess, mentally or physically. I am depressed and annoyed, not by him but by myself, by me being stupid.

[do_shahbaz]

1. I don't consider it realistic that a Chinese in their fundamental English level of just "This is not a pen; that is my hat" keeps talking about analyzing Shakespeare and Chaucer.

No language is harder than the others by virtue of its age alone. Early Modern English might seem difficult to a speaker of contemporary English, however to a speaker of, say, Polish or Xhosa with no foreknowledge of either language they would just seem and sound as easy or difficult as each other. (I have purposefully omitted Chaucer because the grammar of Middle English is somewhat more complex than Modern English).

In a similar vein -- Nobody sees learning Italian (or more accurately speaking, Tuscan) as a prerequisite to study the works of Cicero, although the former might help with the acquisition of Latin. Many just learn Latin as-is, and such is what I am planning to do -- but with Classical Chinese. For centuries Koreans, Japanese, the Vietnamese, etc. have been learning 言文, many without recourse to any contemporary Chinese language/dialect, and I just can't see why the same cannot be done with ample effort and commitment.

I am depressed and annoyed, not by him but by myself, by me being stupid.

Every beginner is ignorant -- but as a learner accumulates knowledge and experience of a direction he wishes to pursue that ignorance is slowly washed away. But there is no such thing as stupidity when it comes to languages, for one grows up with mastery of at least one tongue.

And Ks also clearly suggested him to start another thread.

I shall do so in a while -- when I feel I can spare the time and energy to do so.

And fyi, I am no Westerner -- in the sense of originating or living in a country in North America or Western Europe. But I do apologise if I had caused you to feel slighted in any manner. And if the presence of my posts in this thread had been a bother, I shall move them, and discussions pertaining, to another thread.

[azhong]

Okay then, and I apologize to you, too. I've possibly misunderstood you. I withdraw my previous words.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, I was surprised that you seemed so upset. I don't think do_shahbaz did anything wrong.

For whatever it's worth, I am fine with either going through a literary work here or starting a new thread for it.

I wish to see how far one can go with learning a language from literary works written therein.

This is currently most of what I do in real life.

[księżycowy]

Not to pile on, but I was surprised as well.

[azhong]

(Well then, I'll explain briefly why I became upset, also as an opportunity to help us understand one another since all of us are ULers learning seriously. In summary, as I've said, It's me misunderstanding do_shahbatz. His latest reply showed his reasonableness and calmness. I think he showed a very good communication. It's not a post an adolescent who just want to boast can respond after reading my attack/complaint.)

I saw do_shahbatz responded nothing to Ks's and my suggestions but continued mentioning another big historical document 典論 in another thread. Even a Chinese, when serious about reading through the five documents in do_shahbatz's list, will also need weeks. In consiquence, I misunderstood that do_shahbatz was just to boast his knowledge about books written in ancient Chinese.

But, after his reply, I thought over do_shahbatz's all posts again yesterday. They did make sense in one way: shahbatz wants to learn ancient Chinese by reading literary books. And he is also seeking the ancient pronunciation. It's unusual, but not impossible, for a foreigner to set that as a learning target. It's more or less like me at my level knowing nothing about Italian wanting to learn Latin. Maybe the former is easier than the latter, because I guess there are more information about ancient Chinese which are written in English than those about Latin written in Chinese.

To sum up, I gained something new in do_shahbatz's latest reply, which helped me see do_shahbatz in a different angle.

[vijayjohn]

But, after his reply, I thought over do_shahbatz's all posts again yesterday. They did make sense in one way: shahbatz wants to learn ancient Chinese by reading literary books. And he is also seeking the ancient pronunciation. It's unusual, but not impossible, for a foreigner to set that as a learning target. It's more or less like me at my level knowing nothing about Italian wanting to learn Latin. Maybe the former is easier than the latter, because I guess there are more information about ancient Chinese which are written in English than those about Latin written in Chinese.

Hmm, I don't think it's that unusual. I mean, trying to learn Old Chinese pronunciation is unusual (and probably impossible in a way since we can only guess how things were pronounced in Old Chinese and do not know for sure). Trying to learn Classical Chinese or Latin without learning Mandarin or Italian doesn't seem unusual to me at all, though. I myself wrote an entire play in Latin at a time when I knew less Italian than you do now. I'm pretty sure I have met several Americans who studied Latin but don't speak any other foreign languages.

[księżycowy]

Depending on how one goes about learning Classical Chinese, though, a knowledge of at least some modern Mandarin is usually assumed. Most materials are geared toward that. I suppose it's not impossible to learn Classical Chinese without some Mandarin, but most textbooks, grammars, dictionaries assume that route. If you're making your own materials, that's a tall order but conceivable.

Latin is a different animal.

[azhong]

I suppose there might be resources good and abundant enough for learning classical Chinese directly without the need of knowing fundamental modern Chinese since English is the most widely used language in our era.

In fact, we native speakers are not really educated and required to write essays or poem in Classical Chinese before high school. We just read some selected works and tried to understand their meanings, and those works were taught in Mandarin but not in Taiwanese. It will be cool if there is some modern person who can well write an essay in Classical Chinese.