The Political Compass (again)

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vijayjohn
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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-12-13, 21:27

Koko wrote:Maybe I should've kept my explanation in that post instead of expecting you to assume I had a reason for believing what I said. But whatever.

Well, I had reasons for believing what I did back then, too. And while mine may or may not have been as well thought out as yours, I think this is something that can change over time as well as we learn more. :)
I'm a socialist because I grew up in a poorer-than-most household in a primarily conservative province. This was the result of conservatism/capitalism, and most of my life the Conservative Party was the ruling party in Canada, so I experienced much of the damage a rightist government causes (second-hand mostly, but I would've been affected in some way too).

And what was the nature of that damage?
Even if I weren't affected by capitalism I would've read about the problems rightist views have caused in the past (imperialism, nationalism, militarism, capitalism mainly). And to get a good idea of real communism, there is the USSR even if it was more of a militarized totalitarian state. Economically it was left, yes, and that actually saved the state from the Depression (and people say communism is bad. Bah! This is a thing that makes me largely in favour of leftism, because communism actually worked instead of the capitalistic "solutions" the Conservatives and US made).

But how successful was that really? And was that due to communism per se or to isolationism combined with industrialization? Plus industrialization in the USSR at the time directly caused millions of people to die from famines in its rural areas.
But socially the state was too far right that people fail to see the economic advantages of communism, and I would even say that isn't totally unfair (most communist regimes and states are absolutely terrible examples of communism).

Sorry, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-13, 23:07

vijayjohn wrote:And what was the nature of that damage?

My mom is $60,000 in debt in student loans. She wouldn't be if 1) post-secondary education was either free or at least way more affordable 2) there was a better way to help students pay their tuition than student loans. That's one that affects me personally. But there's also the Wolf Cull I've talked about that's the result of the frickin BC Liberals (the Conservative party essentially; don't let the word "liberals" fool you). That's naming a couple, and I can't really think of more at the moment.

But how successful was that really? And was that due to communism per se or to isolationism combined with industrialization? Plus industrialization in the USSR at the time directly caused millions of people to die from famines in its rural areas.

I'm not saying that there wasn't harm done by the means the USSR went about keeping the economy in shape, that's foolish. Tbh dunno which is more the underlying cause.

But socially the state was too far right that people fail to see the economic advantages of communism, and I would even say that isn't totally unfair (most communist regimes and states are absolutely terrible examples of communism).

Sorry, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that.

When one thinks of communism, they think of the Soviet Union and so think of the millions of people who died from the industrialization. And then the USSR was highly militarized, like China and North Korea (not really communist, but called so for some weird reason :roll: ). The social policies were very restrictive. Those together seem to cover up the great economy.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Johanna » 2015-12-14, 11:59

Koko wrote:My mom is $60,000 in debt in student loans. She wouldn't be if 1) post-secondary education was either free or at least way more affordable 2) there was a better way to help students pay their tuition than student loans.

Tuition is free here, and a bachelor's degree will normally mean you owe the state $35,000, and a master's degree $58,000 in total (Canadian dollars).

So living where tertiary education almost always is free is no guarantee that you don't end up in debt, living isn't free after all, and I can't see how you'd pay for it in any other way than either save up before, have someone pay your expenses for you, or take out a loan. You can work, sure, but how many hours before it starts affecting your studies?
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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-14, 15:59

Johanna wrote:Tuition is free here, and a bachelor's degree will normally mean you owe the state $35,000, and a master's degree $58,000 in total (Canadian dollars).

Why do you pay for the degree? What does that do?

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Johanna » 2015-12-15, 1:08

Koko wrote:
Johanna wrote:Tuition is free here, and a bachelor's degree will normally mean you owe the state $35,000, and a master's degree $58,000 in total (Canadian dollars).

Why do you pay for the degree? What does that do?

You're not paying for the degree, you're paying for rent, food, insurance, clothes, transport etc. Like I said, living isn't free ;)
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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-15, 2:33

Uhm, couldn't you just not live in a dormroom and pay for your own transportation/food/rent/etc? Those seem like optional expenses arbitrarily attached to education that would otherwise be payed for without a degree.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Johanna » 2015-12-15, 2:49

Koko wrote:Uhm, couldn't you just not live in a dormroom and pay for your own transportation/food/rent/etc? Those seem like optional expenses arbitrarily attached to education that would otherwise be payed for without a degree.

So not only should education be free, housing should too? When it's not free for anyone else in the entire country?* We do have dorm rooms, but you still have to pay rent for them, and no Swedish student would ever accept sharing a dorm room with anyone so that's definitely something that would make the costs for the universities go up a lot. Money much better spent on education and research.

And you don't need to actually finish a degree in order to get a student loan, all you have to do is get enough credits each semester to satisfy the agency handling the loans, and if you quit after a semester or two that's fine too, your debt will simply be lower than if you had studied for 6 semesters (bachelor's degree), ten (master's degree) or eleven (vet school and med school).

And like I said, sure you can pay for all those things in other ways, but most students can't. Their parents won't foot the bill, most aren't even able to if they have more than one kid going to uni at the same time, and you can only work so many hours before it starts affecting your studies in a negative way.

The reason student loans exist is so that you are able to go to uni without having to work on top of your studies or parents who are rich enough to pay for all your expenses. If you don't go to uni and can't support yourself by other means, you're expected to get a job.

* When you live on welfare, it's free in the sense that you don't have to work for it, but there are criteria you have to fulfil and you still have to pay rent, it's just that your welfare money covers it.
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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-15, 3:25

Johanna wrote:So not only should education be free, housing should too? When it's not free for anyone else in the entire country?*

That's… not what I meant. Housing shouldn't be free (well, at least not in today's society, but ideally it should be free, but a different subject). I think I just got confused by what you meant with the change in prices for the two degrees. Do you mean that generally for the whole time you spend on a bachelor's degree the money you would've spent is $35k? Or that you give $35k straight away for the time you spend? If the latter, my question remains: Why couldn't you just not live in a dorm and pay for the other stuff as you need them?

We do have dorm rooms, but you still have to pay rent for them, and no Swedish student would ever accept sharing a dorm room with anyone so that's definitely something that would make the costs for the universities go up a lot. Money much better spent on education and research.

That's odd. Why would you want to avoid sharing rent? It's certainly cheaper to split the rent than make it up yourself.

if you had studied for 6 semesters (bachelor's degree), ten (master's degree) or eleven (vet school and med school).

6 semesters for a bachelor's?! Here it's only 4 (IIRC).

If you don't go to uni and can't support yourself by other means, you're expected to get a job.

Understandably so (but again, there are ideals that simply don't work in today's society, unfortunately).

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Johanna » 2015-12-15, 3:41

Koko wrote:
Johanna wrote:So not only should education be free, housing should too? When it's not free for anyone else in the entire country?*

That's… not what I meant. Housing shouldn't be free (well, at least not in today's society, but ideally it should be free, but a different subject). I think I just got confused by what you meant with the change in prices for the two degrees. Do you mean that generally for the whole time you spend on a bachelor's degree the money you would've spent is $35k? Or that you give $35k straight away for the time you spend? If the latter, my question remains: Why couldn't you just not live in a dorm and pay for the other stuff as you need them?

You get money each month, except in June and July, and if you drop out or don't pass enough courses, it stops coming. After 6 semesters of studies your total debt is about $35,000, and after 10 it's about $58,000.

And you do pay for everything as you need it, with your student loan.

Koko wrote:
Johanna wrote:We do have dorm rooms, but you still have to pay rent for them, and no Swedish student would ever accept sharing a dorm room with anyone so that's definitely something that would make the costs for the universities go up a lot. Money much better spent on education and research.

That's odd. Why would you want to avoid sharing rent? It's certainly cheaper to split the rent than make it up yourself.

Because at 19-21 (most people these days take a year or two off between high school and uni, and we normally graduate high school at 19) the last thing you want is another 3+ years of teenage life, you want to be an adult. Not to mention that sharing a room means a serious lack of privacy that most people haven't experienced since they were 10 or so.

There are plenty of students who share flats though, but then they still have their own bedrooms.

Koko wrote:
Johanna wrote: if you had studied for 6 semesters (bachelor's degree), ten (master's degree) or eleven (vet school and med school).

6 semesters for a bachelor's?! Here it's only 4 (IIRC).

It's the same here as in most of the European Union. And there are plenty of countries where it normally takes 4 years, your southern neighbours among them IIRC.

Koko wrote:
Johanna wrote:If you don't go to uni and can't support yourself by other means, you're expected to get a job.

Understandably so (but again, there are ideals that simply don't work in today's society, unfortunately).

Yeah, but in order to get unemployment money you're supposed to at least look for one. Which I think is only fair.
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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-15, 3:53

I see, you were talking about student loans :P Okay. That seems sensible then :yep:

What do you 3+ more years of teenage life? In high school do you live in dorms? I feel like there's a bit of cultural difference here causing some misunderstanding between school life in Sweden (and most likely other European countries) and in Canada :hmm:

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Johanna » 2015-12-15, 4:05

Koko wrote:What do you 3+ more years of teenage life? In high school do you live in dorms? I feel like there's a bit of cultural difference here causing some misunderstanding between school life in Sweden (and most likely other European countries) and in Canada :hmm:

No, but sharing a dorm with other people without a space that's truly your own feels a bit... infantile when you're in your early 20's. It feels like when you were a kid sharing your room with a sibling, or maybe like when you were a teenager and had your own room but that your parents still had the right to go through at their discretion. You simply don't get to have your own household on your terms.

Living with friends is different, first of all you choose them. Secondly, your room is your room and anyone trespassing is actually committing a crime. And thirdly, most people get their own small flat after a year or two if they can.

That isn't to say that Swedish uni students in their early 20's can't be hopelessly immature, they definitely can, but they don't like having it forced onto them.
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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-12-15, 13:33

Koko wrote:
if you had studied for 6 semesters (bachelor's degree), ten (master's degree) or eleven (vet school and med school).

6 semesters for a bachelor's?! Here it's only 4 (IIRC).

I'm a bit confused. Did you mean four years or does it really only take two years to get a Bachelor's degree in Canada? How long does a Master's take then?

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-15, 15:43

Four for a bachelor's here :wink: . I think it's two more semesters for a master's (so 6 in total: bachelor's + master's). Though, I think it depends on the major, since some people can take as long as 8! But honestly, I have no idea of how long a master's is.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby kevin » 2015-12-15, 15:56

Koko wrote:6 semesters for a bachelor's?! Here it's only 4 (IIRC).

Here people think that a bachelor's can't be taken serious as a university degree because it's so short with its 6 or 7 semesters. Before the European system was introduced, we used to have the Diplom, which was supposed to have around 9 semesters (and in practice was more like 11 or 12 in average).

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-12-15, 16:25

Koko wrote:Four for a bachelor's here :wink: . I think it's two more semesters for a master's (so 6 in total: bachelor's + master's). Though, I think it depends on the major, since some people can take as long as 8! But honestly, I have no idea of how long a master's is.

Only six semesters / three years for a Bachelor's PLUS a Master's? I'm having trouble believing that.

It's three years for a Bachelor's here, and two years for a Master's. In some cases, like for the studies I did, the Master's can only be one year, but even for those cases they're looking at making it two years.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2015-12-15, 20:21

Again, I have no idea how many semesters you need for any degree (I'm only in grade 11 after all). It's about 4 years for a bachelor's here (got confused). Still dunno about master's... I'm thinking two years on top of the four though, I could ask my mom later.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby beispiel » 2015-12-31, 22:37

Economic Left/Right: -4.9
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.9

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby TheStrayCat » 2016-02-15, 1:40

Economic Left/Right: -2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

I don't remember my exact figures a few years ago when I first took the test, but I believe I must've drifted a lot towards the liberal end.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby Koko » 2016-02-15, 6:49

Yes Max, come to the dark side. We advocate freedom but restrict what you can say, do, think at the same time.

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Re: The Political Compass (again)

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-04-27, 6:23

Koko is totally out to lunch about education in this country. A bachelor's degree takes 3-4 years (6-8 semesters), a master's usually takes 2 (4 semesters), and a PhD takes however the fuck long it takes but at least 3 years. Medical school and I think law school take four years, maybe three sometimes.
TheStrayCat wrote:Economic Left/Right: -2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

I don't remember my exact figures a few years ago when I first took the test, but I believe I must've drifted a lot towards the liberal end.
Shit, I just took this for giggles and got almost exactly the same result (I think the economic one was, in fact, exactly the same and the social one was close). I was looking at their analysis of the 2016 US election which is garbage (they seem to think Hillary has gone from a centrist to a neocon in the past four years and that all of the Republicans are actual fascists), but I feel this is accurate enough for me. I'm strongly liberal to libertarian on social issues and centrist to apathetic on economic ones.


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