How do we handle disagreements?

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Yasna
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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby Yasna » 2022-03-30, 14:28

mōdgethanc wrote:I have nothing to add other than the thought of gay privilege being a thing because gay men make slightly more money is stupid. Guess the woke cult got me.

Maybe the rationality cult got me, but the thought of an educated person with some basic knowledge of gay society not being able to figure out any other ways in which gays might be privileged is stupid.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

azhong

Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby azhong » 2022-03-30, 14:34

vijayjohn wrote: I am angry at him [Ks] for treating people...

Okay, I think I didn't read the post you've mentioned, and what I am mainly so impressed with are your joyful interactions in FUBAR2021. Are you sure he wasn't just teasing you or something based on your friendship? Anyway, I feel it a big pity for you both to lose each other as a friend. If I were you, I would try my best to save the friendship. It will be more and more difficult to make real friends as we gets older and older. Or, at least I would think if there is anything I can improve myself, so as to avoid repeating the same situation with the next friend.

Ks, if you read this, I wish you can come back regardless of you relationship with Vj.

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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-03-30, 14:47

azhong wrote:Are you sure he wasn't just teasing you or something based on your friendship?

Yes.

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linguoboy
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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby linguoboy » 2022-03-30, 16:50

Yasna wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:I have nothing to add other than the thought of gay privilege being a thing because gay men make slightly more money is stupid. Guess the woke cult got me.

Maybe the rationality cult got me, but the thought of an educated person with some basic knowledge of gay society not being able to figure out any other ways in which gays might be privileged is stupid.

Ooh, this'll be good. Go ahead, unpack my invisible knapsack of "gay privilege", mister! I can't wait to see what you'll find inside.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby Yasna » 2022-03-30, 17:41

linguoboy wrote:Ooh, this'll be good. Go ahead, unpack my invisible knapsack of "gay privilege", mister! I can't wait to see what you'll find inside.

If your request wasn't dripping with bad faith, I might have humored you.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby linguoboy » 2022-03-30, 17:52

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Ooh, this'll be good. Go ahead, unpack my invisible knapsack of "gay privilege", mister! I can't wait to see what you'll find inside.

If your request wasn't dripping with bad faith, I might have humored you.

You think a bad faith argument merits a good faith response?

Trust me, back when the same-sex marriage debate was in full flame, I read through enough bad-faith arguments about how marriage really sucks and homos like me are actually fortunate to be exempted from it to know the kind of stuff you'll gin up and I'm simply not convinced. Like, yeah, I'll gladly take a "marriage penalty" when filing my taxes if it means the hospital can't legally prevent me from seeing my dying spouse or claiming his remains.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Yasna
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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby Yasna » 2022-03-30, 18:03

linguoboy wrote:Trust me, back when the same-sex marriage debate was in full flame, I read through enough bad-faith arguments about how marriage really sucks and homos like me are actually fortunate to be exempted from it to know the kind of stuff you'll gin up and I'm simply not convinced. Like, yeah, I'll gladly take a "marriage penalty" when filing my taxes if it means the hospital can't legally prevent me from seeing my dying spouse or claiming his remains.

Not what I had in mind. I agree that should not be considered a privilege.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby linguoboy » 2022-03-30, 18:09

Yasna wrote:Not what I had in mind. I agree that should not be considered a privilege.

It was just an off-the-cuff example.

Honestly, I think one of the biggest challenges to making a case for "gay privilege" is that identifying gay men ultimately relies on self-reporting, which leads to a pretty fundamental dilemma: Are gay men really, on average, better educated and better paid than straight men or are MSM[*] more comfortable openly identifying as "gay" when they're better educated and highly-valued in their jobs?

[*] men who have sex with men
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Neosamurai7

Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby Neosamurai7 » 2022-03-31, 10:22

vijayjohn wrote:
księżycowy wrote:If you think I was antagonizing you, you misunderstood my point.

Not at all. I understand exactly what your point was and still is.
To put what I have to say out there:

I think you were very insensitive and discriminatory towards my faith and religious beliefs in our argument some months ago.

This was directly in response to you being very insensitive and discriminatory towards all faiths, religious beliefs, and races other than your own. The whole point of what I said was precisely to show you how insensitive and discriminatory your own words at that exact same time were.
Which to a degree I can understand, because I don't think you have the same attachment to them that I do.

It has nothing at all to do with what I think about your religion. While I don't share your beliefs, I have no actual problem with your religion whatsoever. But I do have a problem with the Roman Catholic Church because it almost certainly subjected my ancestors to the Inquisition even though they were very likely Christian before the Catholic Church existed and possibly before any Europeans had even heard of Christianity. Expecting me to be sympathetic to your concerns regarding membership in a church that persecuted my family is, quite frankly, unreasonable.
But this does not excuse calling them "whining" . Regardless of how anyone else understands them. Because it's what I'm talking about, it has to be understood (as best as another can) through my lens. I don't get a right to call your issues "whining", and the same for you about mine.

When you repeatedly call me such names as "heretic," "brown devil," and "brown bitch"; when you constantly, constantly make racist jokes; when you fetishize women based on what country they are from; when you make homophobic remarks about me; when you even apologized for getting so upset about the only other flippant remark I ever made regarding your religion, and then, all of a sudden, you get so angry about one flippant remark about your religion that you confront me about it before I've even woken up and then continue to do so in increasingly public venues, yes, I do get to call it "whining."
Of course I understand I'm the boogie man for you now. Or so it seems.

You're not "the boogie man." You're a person who I used to consider a friend - one of my best friends even - and who I translated things for, recorded things for, provided book reviews for - however reluctantly and at your very stubborn insistence - and helped learn various languages, all 100% for free. I don't ask for much in exchange, but I absolutely insist that you respect the right of my family and myself to exist, regardless of whether I am doing anything for you or not.

When you insist, as you do now, on blaming me for ending our friendship; you continually make racist and sexist remarks; and on top of that, you have the nerve to compare my fears regarding my two-year-old niece being shot on account of her skin color, in a country where even the police have done something very similar, to your fears about dwindling church membership, you do not respect our right to exist. This is not the 19th century; no one in the United States of America is going to take one look at you and know you are Catholic, let alone shoot you because you are. This is the 21st century, when people in the United States of America of my ethnicity have repeatedly been targeted and murdered on the basis of nothing more than their skin color.

Your ignorance is not my responsibility. I'm not the one who's responsible for informing you about the various aspects of racism, sexism, and homophobia in society today. There is literature on these things from all over the world dating back hundreds of years. There are people still talking about these things today for all to see for free. Educating yourself on these issues is your responsibility and yours alone, yet I have seen over the years that you are not actually taking that responsibility. And you wonder why I'm not friends with you anymore? That's why I'm not friends with you anymore. As long as you insist on retaining the luxury to remain ignorant of these issues when there is no physical danger to your life as there is to mine, I will never make the mistake of being friends with you again

The vary fact that you wrote this as you did proves you don't get my point at all.

You don't get anywhere by disrespecting another person, regardless of what they have done to you.

I do like grinding on the religion aspect when push comes to shove, but that's only in retaliation for all of the mudslinging you do towards me. What I see if a person who is understandably and legitimately scared for his life and the lives of his family and projecting that pain on others (no matter who they are) when he can't hold it back anymore. This is the issue I'm trying to get at. You can't let your fear over take you.

My point with religion was never that mine equals yours. That is a false equivalency.

For the record, I have no intention of renewing our friendship as it was nor do I blame you for ending it, though even now I still care about you. I'm not dumping this all on you, as you seem to think. I understand fully well I fucked up bigtime as well. And the fact that you read my previous attempts as "antagonizing" really gets to your state of mind at the moment.

And I say all of this because of our past as well as our present. This isn't an isolated incident and goes beyond just the two of us.

Say what you will, as I've said my piece, and don't intend to use this account anymore or continue the cycle of hurting each other.

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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby Naava » 2022-03-31, 20:02

admin

A few important reminders to each and every one of you:

#1 If you wish to discuss topics related to racism, we have a thread for that here. Please use that for future discussions. Keep this topic for how to handle disagreements.

#2 In regards of disagreements, please remember our Forum Policy and especially the point 2.2.:

Do not:
• Ridicule, mock or insult other members.
• Post for the sole purpose of getting reactions from other members (in other words, do not troll).
• Fill the forum with a lot of meaningless posts.
• Speculate that someone is a troll or spammer or call their posts trolling or spam.
• Do any backseat moderating, that is to tell other members what to do or write, how to behave, that they are breaking the rules or should be banned.

These are all infractions that can result in immediate ban. Be nice to each other even if you don't agree with them. If you see someone insulting or provoking you, report the post or private message and do not reply to it in kind, no matter how much you think they'd deserve it. It is also worth remembering that you are under no obligation to answer immediately or at all to anyone. If you feel upset or provoked, you are allowed to take your time to calm down.

Finally, we recommend you to try using "I feel/ think" more when stating your opinions. Perhaps this could help to make your words sound less accusing to others and prevent misunderstandings that lead to heated arguments.

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Re: How do we handle disagreements?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2022-04-02, 1:36

Yasna wrote:Maybe the rationality cult got me, but the thought of an educated person with some basic knowledge of gay society not being able to figure out any other ways in which gays might be privileged is stupid.
I'm going to use this to explain why I don't like debating with you. You come across as if you think you're the only rational one here, like no one else is capable of looking at a complex social issue in an objective way. That isn't true. It isn't rational, either.

I would be open to talking about ways in which minority groups might end up having some privileges of their own, and wouldn't rule it out. It's an interesting premise. But I don't want to discuss it right now, because I believe it would be aggravating. So I feel it's best to not.

Have a nice day.
[ˈmoːdjeðɑŋk]


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