Violence

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator:Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:
Violence

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-10, 8:53

IIRC I thought of starting a thread like this years ago but then decided against it; I told myself the answer to the question I had was too obvious. Lately, I feel less sure of this.

This was partly inspired by a certain thread regarding antifa and what not, but also just by past discussions regarding different kinds of violence. For example, I once saw someone claiming that rape and murder were unacceptable, yet both rape and murder were among the things that some of the Allied forces did during World War II, and I'm not entirely sure they would say they were unacceptable crimes in that case. This makes me wonder, why should it be the case, for example, that one person killing another is not acceptable, yet an entire war can be? How do people define justified and unjustified violence? What are the boundaries? How do people differ with regards to what kinds of violence they see as acceptable or otherwise?

What do you think? In your opinion, is violence acceptable under any circumstances? What kinds of violence, and under what circumstance(s)?
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2019-12-10, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
md0
Posts:8188
Joined:2010-08-08, 19:56
Country:DEGermany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby md0 » 2019-12-10, 10:27

Those things are more easily discussed than practised. I'm no longer a pacifist, not because I believe that violence is acceptable, but because I realise it's sometimes unavoidable. But it's always something you have to think long and hard about, and take responsibility for in its aftermath, when the threat goes away. You should always feel a reasonable degree of guilt for not having found another way. I feel the same about the use of imprisonment in the criminal justice system. As a society, we should feel like we haven't yet being able to find another way to provide restoration and rehabilitation.

There was none, nor will ever be any strategic necessity for rape. Those are crimes of opportunity, because you expect to get away for it due to the chaotic circumstances.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-12, 6:11

md0 wrote:But it's always something you have to think long and hard about, and take responsibility for in its aftermath, when the threat goes away.

What if the threat never goes away?

User avatar
md0
Posts:8188
Joined:2010-08-08, 19:56
Country:DEGermany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby md0 » 2019-12-12, 7:32

vijayjohn wrote:
md0 wrote:But it's always something you have to think long and hard about, and take responsibility for in its aftermath, when the threat goes away.

What if the threat never goes away?

Are you talking about so-called intractable conflicts like Syria and Israel-Palestine?
Fights still have end points and periods of ceasefire.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-12, 8:32

md0 wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
md0 wrote:But it's always something you have to think long and hard about, and take responsibility for in its aftermath, when the threat goes away.

What if the threat never goes away?

Are you talking about so-called intractable conflicts like Syria and Israel-Palestine?
Fights still have end points and periods of ceasefire.

I'm not talking about anything in particular, although I actually had something more like gang violence in mind, or I suppose lower-level conflicts in general; caste war in India might actually be a better example. Fights may have endpoints, but that doesn't necessarily mean we live to see them. Do people necessarily have the luxury to think so much about moral dilemmas they directly face?

For example, suppose you lived in a bad neighborhood and were directly threatened by gang violence. Let's also suppose that you decide at some point to resort to violence - to protect yourself, your family, or whoever - and you don't have enough money to move out, and at some point, people from the gang kill you. When are you supposed to think about whether it was right to resort to violence?

Or in the case of caste war: Not so very long ago, in the state of Bihar in North India, many low-caste women couldn't (and probably many still can't) step out of their own houses without a high-caste man raping them. This was such a regular occurrence that some of these women began arming themselves and training other low-caste women on using guns to defend themselves. This ended the rapes until the high-caste men bribed the police to basically go on pogroms against the villages where low-caste people lived. Obviously, many of these women died. Were they really supposed to think about whether they should have resorted to violence or not?

User avatar
md0
Posts:8188
Joined:2010-08-08, 19:56
Country:DEGermany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby md0 » 2019-12-13, 14:55

I don't see the clash here, because I did say that often the answer ends up being "yes, we were right to resort to violence in those circumstances". For me the important bit is to have the conscience to even ask yourself that question. What I'm opposed to is the fetischisation and aesthetics of violence.

If I'm missing something you might have to spell it out for me in more detail, because to be honest, I'm still thinking of this in the term of the antifa thread.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-12-14, 4:01

Okay, maybe I'm just confused and we don't disagree on anything anyway, but if it's of any help: This thread isn't about anything specific. It's about violence in general. When is it justified, and when is it not?

You talked about what people should do "when the threat goes away." I'm saying the threat of violence often outlives us. We can't do anything when the threat goes away if we die before the threat goes away.

User avatar
md0
Posts:8188
Joined:2010-08-08, 19:56
Country:DEGermany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby md0 » 2019-12-14, 7:52

Ok I think it's a matter of scope. I'm thinking of individual humans we may have to injure or kill in a specific situation.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

User avatar
Gormur
Posts:8190
Joined:2005-05-17, 1:11
Real Name:Gormur
Gender:male
Country:CUCuba (Cuba)
Contact:

Re: Violence

Postby Gormur » 2020-07-09, 2:14

Violence is never a solution but can be a means to an end. If there's an exception to fight fair I'd like to read about it

Nobody can justify violence by becoming more violent just like war being justified. Then people teach their kids that ideologies are violent but really it's just people who hate you

Killing for survival is bad but it's not wrong. Wishing pain on others is violent behavior

It seems like common sense to me, but I never said I was right
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests