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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 15:06
by הענט
That's a nice birthday present. Thanks. :)

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 15:52
by Yasna
Strange that so many people here are celebrating a move that will leave Catalonia stripped of its autonomy in short order. Well, hope you enjoyed your games. Now get ready for some law and order.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 16:22
by linguoboy
Yasna wrote:Strange that so many people here are celebrating a move that will leave Catalonia stripped of its autonomy in short order. Well, hope you enjoyed your games. Now get ready for some law and order.

Actually, I'm preparing for civil disobedience on a massive scale and an abusive police response. YMMV.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 16:53
by Saim
Yasna wrote:Strange that so many people here are celebrating a move that will leave Catalonia stripped of its autonomy in short order.


They were going to apply 155 anyway. Pay more attention next time. (We were talking about it literally on the same page as the proclamation).

155 is not a force of nature triggered by the declaration of independence. It's a political decision made by the Spanish government.

Yasna wrote:Now get ready for some law and order.


:rotfl: Who are you, Judge Dredd? A sheriff from a spaghetti Western?

linguoboy wrote:Actually, I'm preparing for civil disobedience on a massive scale and an abusive police response. YMMV.


Then it'll be the fault of the abused for being "irresponsible", rather than of the people who committed the abuses.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 17:41
by Yasna
Saim wrote:They were going to apply 155 anyway. Pay more attention next time. (We were talking about it literally on the same page as the proclamation).

As long as independence had not been unambiguously declared, there was still an opportunity for the Generalitat to return to constitutional order on its own and avoid Article 155 being invoked. Pay more attention next time.

:rotfl: Who are you, Judge Dredd? A sheriff from a spaghetti Western?

No, just someone who enjoys watching self-absorbed separatists enamored by the romanticism of the struggle and with little interest in the welfare of real people being brought back down to the cold, solid ground of reality.

Then it'll be the fault of the abused for being "irresponsible", rather than of the people who committed the abuses.

Wow. The shirking of all responsibility has already started.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 18:05
by Saim
Yasna wrote:As long as independence had not been unambiguously declared, there was still an opportunity for the Generalitat to return to constitutional order on its own and avoid Article 155 being invoked.


Do you remember the bit where Puigdemont was going to call autonomous elections?

Yasna wrote:No, just someone who enjoys watching self-absorbed separatists enamored by the romanticism of the struggle and with little interest in the welfare of real people being brought back down to the cold, solid ground of reality. [...] Wow. The shirking of all responsibility has already started.


The separatists are real people. Two million of them have hit the streets once or twice a year for four years, and three million voted in the "illegal" referendum. Any solution that doesn't deal with that fact isn't a solution at all.

What's going to happen when Spain ramps up the methods used on the 1st of October and there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people ready to engage in massive civil disobedience? What is your actual solution? Do you not see that Spain could've avoided all of this by allowing an independence referendum just as the UK and Canada did?

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 20:39
by md0
This caught me by surprise, it looked like Puigdemont backed down for a while.

Anyway, I took a peek at what /r/europe had to say, and oh my god, are the people there going "lalala I can't hear you over the sound of my legality", as if secessions are ever legal.

Well, interesting times ahead anyway.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 21:33
by JackFrost
Yasna wrote:Strange that so many people here are celebrating a move that will leave Catalonia stripped of its autonomy in short order. Well, hope you enjoyed your games. Now get ready for some law and order.

Do you realize that Spain is now a foreign country to Catalonia? The 155 has now no force there.

I should remind you how the US got its independence. You know, it was actually a belief of a minority of colonists and even founding fathers hesitated going that far, preferring to remain English and to talk with London to resolve the then-crisis. But no, the king was having none of that. Just like Rajoy right now. Brief : many states today were born beyond law and order, so Catalonia is not an exception.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-27, 22:35
by vijayjohn
JackFrost wrote:I should remind you how the US got its independence.

I tried doing this, too, but he doesn't seem to have ears to listen.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-28, 8:17
by Saim
Image

"Well I say that peaceful coexistence in Catalonia needs to be restored... by force!"

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-28, 8:22
by Saim
JackFrost wrote:Do you realize that Spain is now a foreign country to Catalonia? The 155 has now no force there.


No diguis blat fins que sigui al sac i ben lligat. :wink:

vijayjohn wrote:
JackFrost wrote:I should remind you how the US got its independence.

I tried doing this, too, but he doesn't seem to have ears to listen.


It's the cult of the nation-state.

Banal nationalism is not nationalism. Fascism and secessionism are.
All states that already exist are unquestionable, even if they're committing severe crimes against their own population.
All newly proposed states are illegal, until they aren't anymore. Then we forget we ever thought they were illegal.

Image
Complaining about nationalists while draped in national flags

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-28, 15:02
by linguoboy
So the latest conspiracy theory coming out of Spain seems to be: Putin!

A friend of my late husband is there and he claims it's well-known that Putin is funding the separatists. Has anyone else run across this? (He seems to get all of his information from El País, if that's any help.)

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-28, 15:35
by JackFrost
Saim wrote:
JackFrost wrote:Do you realize that Spain is now a foreign country to Catalonia? The 155 has now no force there.

No diguis blat fins que sigui al sac i ben lligat. :wink:

Què? :|

Sé bé que el país català és en una àrea molta boirosa, però jo no puc mai, no puc acceptar mai el fet que un govern central es pugui imposar a una subentitat amb molta autonomia així. Mai. Ni a Catalunya, ni al Canadà, ni als EU... En teoria, Ottawa té dos opcions, disallowance and reversation, que li permet de refusar l'assentiment reial o no a lleis provincials, però aquests dos poders no s'utilitzen durant algunes dècades i es consideren obsolets avui. Sóc molt independentista i protector dels poders inviolables i molts sobirans en si mateix que tenen el Québec i els estats americans.

Breu : no reconeix l'existència del 155. Té orígens franquistes i militars com la clàusula "la unitat insoluble d'Espanya". Els van escrites per fer-se calmar els cossos militars durant la transició, saps. :wink:

Do you not see that Spain could've avoided all of this by allowing an independence referendum just as the UK and Canada did?

Again, we never really needed their allowance in the first place. As it should be. :wink:

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-28, 17:40
by md0
What's the situation on the ground now?

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-29, 21:14
by Saim
JackFrost wrote:Què? :|


No dic que Espanya tingui legitimitat des d'un punt de vista moral, però de moment la República només ha estat proclamada. Encara no hi ha control del territori, les finances i les forces de seguretat -- per tant no és cap estat i a la pràctica Espanya segueix tenint sobirania sobre Catalunya.

Again, we never really needed their allowance in the first place. As it should be. :wink:


Again, from an ethical perspective I agree. All I'm saying is that from a legal perspective Canada delegated its sovereignty to Quebec even though the Canadian legal system didn't contemplate such a thing, which Spain could easily do despite the clause in the constitution about sovereignty belonging to all Spaniards.

md0 wrote:What's the situation on the ground now?


At the moment in the sovereigntist camp lots of people seem kind of confused. Some are talking about civil disobedience (using tactics similar to the Comitès de Defensa del Referèndum), others about whether to participate in the Catalan autonomous elections called by Rajoy because "if we don't participate they could take away Catalan-medium schooling and TV3". We'll have to wait and see what the two governments will do in the run up to these elections, and whether the main Catalanist parties will participate in them (I have my doubts about the CUP), but it does seem like the Catalan government is going to accept the elections (some even think there's an implicit agreement to go through with a watered-down 155 in exchange for not actually trying to apply the declaration of independence in practice)... although a couple of municipal councils have taken down their Spanish flags, including that of Girona. Who knows.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-30, 17:32
by IpseDixit
Saim wrote:
JackFrost wrote:Do you realize that Spain is now a foreign country to Catalonia? The 155 has now no force there.


No diguis blat fins que sigui al sac i ben lligat. :wink:


We have the same proverb, only with cat instead of wheat. :lol:

Non dire gatto se non ce l'hai nel sacco.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-30, 18:18
by vijayjohn
IpseDixit wrote:
Saim wrote:
JackFrost wrote:Do you realize that Spain is now a foreign country to Catalonia? The 155 has now no force there.


No diguis blat fins que sigui al sac i ben lligat. :wink:


We have the same proverb, only with cat instead of wheat. :lol:

Non dire gatto se non ce l'hai nel sacco.

I keep getting surprised at how similar Italian is to English sometimes. How many other languages have metaphors about a cat in the bag?

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-31, 7:43
by Saim
Puigdemont and half the government are in Brussels, possibly seeking political asylum from the Belgian State. :?

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-31, 9:17
by Luís
Saim wrote:Puigdemont and half the government are in Brussels, possibly seeking political asylum from the Belgian State. :?


Both Belgium and Spain are EU countries, so I don't see how this is even a possibility.

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Posted: 2017-10-31, 9:23
by IpseDixit
So basically the captain has already left the ship lol.