Independence for Catalonia

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Car » 2017-10-31, 10:05

Luís wrote:
Saim wrote:Puigdemont and half the government are in Brussels, possibly seeking political asylum from the Belgian State. :?


Both Belgium and Spain are EU countries, so I don't see how this is even a possibility.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 27366.html
http://news.sky.com/story/asylum-for-ca ... c-11104132

So it might actually be possible after all. :hmm:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-10-31, 10:15

IpseDixit wrote:So basically the captain has already left the ship lol.


Also, the same Catalan parties who declared independence from Spain a few days ago are now agreeing to participate in autonomous elections decided by Madrid in order to be elected to an institution of a country they don't want to be a part of. None of this makes any sense.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-10-31, 16:09

Car wrote:
Luís wrote:
Saim wrote:Puigdemont and half the government are in Brussels, possibly seeking political asylum from the Belgian State. :?

Both Belgium and Spain are EU countries, so I don't see how this is even a possibility.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 27366.html
http://news.sky.com/story/asylum-for-ca ... c-11104132

So it might actually be possible after all. :hmm:

Possible, but unlikely. The immigration minister has been told off by the PM, and while the NV-A (the Flemish separatist party the immigration minister is part of) is the largest party in government and many of its MPs are in favour of an independent Catalonia, it's unlikely the party would consider a government crisis worth it.

On the other hand, the human rights lawyer Puigdemont engaged is exactly the person you'd want to be defended by in such a case. He has experience fighting extradition requests, sometimes even with success.

But then again, that has become more difficult in recent years, and it would require proving that Puigdemont's right to a fair trial would not be granted in Spain, which would be very complicated. It would also seriously cool down the Belgian-Spanish relations, which the Belgian government probably isn't very keen on risking. One of the aforementioned successful cases (a Basque coupled suspected of terrorist activities and being allied with the ETA) lead to exactly that.

He's not actually asking for asylum, though, and an extradition request would have to be dealt with if/when it is made. Going to Brussels (as capital of the EU rather than as capital of Belgium) seems be an effort to get the EU to react with more than just 'not mixing in internal affairs of member states'.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Car » 2017-11-01, 9:52

Thanks for the long explanation, Aurinĭa! Yeah, I read somewhere that your PM told him off. What's the relationship like between those parties if they don't talk about that beforehand?

I have to say that I find it a bit weird to have a separatist party as part of the national government...
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Lur » 2017-11-01, 9:56

Luís wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:So basically the captain has already left the ship lol.


Also, the same Catalan parties who declared independence from Spain a few days ago are now agreeing to participate in autonomous elections decided by Madrid in order to be elected to an institution of a country they don't want to be a part of. None of this makes any sense.

I'm totally lost and I live here, although the local press and media might actually be less reliable...

Through all of this, I just keep thinking "I don't want to be either Spanish or Catalan", on a loop.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-11-01, 23:21

Lur wrote:
Luís wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:So basically the captain has already left the ship lol.


Also, the same Catalan parties who declared independence from Spain a few days ago are now agreeing to participate in autonomous elections decided by Madrid in order to be elected to an institution of a country they don't want to be a part of. None of this makes any sense.

I'm totally lost and I live here, although the local press and media might actually be less reliable...

Through all of this, I just keep thinking "I don't want to be either Spanish or Catalan", on a loop.

While they don't consider those elections as legitimate because only the Catalan president has the power to dissolve parliament and call elections as per statute, they've agreed to take part to re-elect the pro-independence majority, to fight the 155, and to show Madrid that elections aren't going to be the solution to bring Catalonia fully back in its place. And it might work well for sovereignists as a recent poll shows that the JxSí and CUP seem to be on path of holding onto its parliamentary majority.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-11-02, 9:11

JackFrost wrote:While they don't consider those elections as legitimate because only the Catalan president has the power to dissolve parliament and call elections as per statute, they've agreed to take part


No matter how you spin it, if they truly believed the first part of that statement, they would't run (the same way most people who were against independence boycotted the referendum)

And it might work well for sovereignists as a recent poll shows that the JxSí and CUP seem to be on path of holding onto its parliamentary majority.


In a parliament which they don't recognize as legitimate.

And then what? They'll declare independence again?
I get the impression sovereignists have no clue of what they're doing, considering how erratic their moves have been.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-11-02, 9:33

JackFrost wrote:While they don't consider those elections as legitimate because only the Catalan president has the power to dissolve parliament and call elections as per statute, they've agreed to take part to re-elect the pro-independence majority, to fight the 155, and to show Madrid that elections aren't going to be the solution to bring Catalonia fully back in its place. And it might work well for sovereignists as a recent poll shows that the JxSí and CUP seem to be on path of holding onto its parliamentary majority.


That's the official Generalitat line, but I agree with Luís that it doesn't make much sense. Here's what I think is happening:

1. Part of PDeCat doesn't want independence at all (like Santi Vila).
2. They don't have the full support of the Mossos (Catalan police).
3. Puigdemont was going to declare autonomous elections to save his own skin, but he decided against it when he saw a) Spain was still going to arrest him and b) a large part of his electorate saw this as a betrayal. It's much easier to just accept the elections called by Spain.
4. They didn't expect activists to protect the voting locations on the 1st of October; they thought it would just be another bargaining chip but it turned out to be wildly successful. They also don't want massive civil disobedience to take control of the territory because they value stability.

And if you don't agree with that, tell me: where are the famous estructures d'Estat? Who controls the territory (has the new "Republic" even tried to control anything?)? Which flag is still flying over the Palau de la Generalitat? What are the Mossos doing?

Luís wrote:And then what? They'll declare independence again?


The PP has already said that if the independentists win the December elections they'll just apply 155 again. :roll:

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-11-02, 10:09

Saim wrote:
Luís wrote:And then what? They'll declare independence again?


The PP has already said that if the independentists win the December elections they'll just apply 155 again. :roll:


That doesn't make any sense either. Madrid should accept the results, no matter who wins.

In the long term, probably the best solution would be for Spain to become some sort of federation (the EU was headed in that direction at some point). But I don't really see that happening while there's a King as head of state.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-11-02, 10:30

Luís wrote:That doesn't make any sense either.


It makes sense when you consider the fact the PP is a Spanish nationalist party that was founded by one of Franco's ministers (Manuel Fraga). They're acting rationally within their ideological frame (i.e. that Catalonia isn't a real thing and if people in Catalonia believe in it it's because they've been indoctrinated, and that all power in Spain rightfully belongs to the PP/the economic interests they represent).

Luís wrote:In the long term, probably the best solution would be for Spain to become some sort of federation (the EU was headed in that direction at some point).


The thing is that the conflict with Catalonia is not fundamentally about independence, but about whether Catalonia exists at all as a political subject and separate cultural sphere (i.e. a 'nation'). Allowing for true federalisation (where Catalonia would have the same powers as Flanders or Quebec and wasn't constantly attacked for it) would be a massive concession to the Catalans, to the point where there they might as well just let them leave from the right-wing Spanish perspective.

In the officially monolingual autonomous communities of Spain hardly anyone actually proposes federalism except as a way to counter independence. It's also true that according to surveys most of the population in officially monolingual autonomous communities (as well as Valencia unfortunately) supports recentralisation. Lots of Spaniards also resent the fact that the Catalans are "always asking for things", so I don't think they'd be happy for the Spanish government to cave in just because of the threat of secession, which they would see as a form of blackmail. And honestly, I don't even disagree with them.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Lur » 2017-11-02, 11:59

Saim wrote:In the officially monolingual autonomous communities of Spain hardly anyone actually proposes federalism except as a way to counter independence. It's also true that according to surveys most of the population in officially monolingual autonomous communities (as well as Valencia unfortunately) supports recentralisation.

Aaaand this puts everything in perspective about the way the state is constructed... it's like holding it with tape...

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-11-02, 13:12

Luís wrote:But I don't really see that happening while there's a King as head of state.

A king as head of state doesn't have to impede federalisation.

What I wonder about is what those in favour of independence would want with regards to the EU. Would they be fine with not being part of the EU, despite being surrounded by it? I can't imagine that'd be good for the Catalan economy. Would they want to stay in the EU or join again? The EU has already said any new state would have to go through the process of applying, whether or not that state was previously part of an EU member state. Unanimity of EU member states is needed before a new state can join, and I don't see Spain ever accepting an independent Catalonia in the EU.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-11-02, 13:32

Aurinĭa wrote:
Luís wrote:But I don't really see that happening while there's a King as head of state.

A king as head of state doesn't have to impede federalisation.


Because of what the monarchy represents in Spanish history, not because it's a king per se.

But yeah, Felipe VI has been lousy when it comes to dealing with the whole situation as well.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-11-02, 20:06

Half the Catalan government is in jail.

(Except for the abovementioned Santi Vila, who got out on 50,000€ bail for criticising his party at the last minute.)

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-11-02, 20:21

Terrible move. I don't see how this isn't going to backfire.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-11-02, 23:29

Luís wrote:No matter how you spin it, if they truly believed the first part of that statement, they would't run (the same way most people who were against independence boycotted the referendum)

Saim wrote:That's the official Generalitat line, but I agree with Luís that it doesn't make much sense.

I'm simply relaying the statements from pro-independence parties and organizations to Luis.

Because it doesn't make sense to me as well. There are too many then-whats. Pro-independence parties reelected to the majority? Then what? They lose the majority, but could rely on the Podemos? Then what? Besides cooling the situation down for a moment as far as the DUI is concerned... I simply cannot see how elections would be the solution as Rajoy claimed.

I get the impression sovereignists have no clue of what they're doing, considering how erratic their moves have been.

Remember that they form a coalition with a common clause, but have various political ideologies... from conservative to leftist.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-11-03, 11:48

Now they're going to ask a judge to ban the CUP... :| Spain banned parties before but only because they had links to the ETA. Never before they banned a non-violent one while all fine having fascists marching all over the fucking place instilling some fear and nonsense in the public. :roll:

Edit: I misread. A citizen just presented a complaint regarding the CUP to the "fiscalia". No one asked a judge to ban it yet.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Lur » 2017-11-03, 19:51

JackFrost wrote:Never before they banned a non-violent one while all fine having fascists marching all over the fucking place instilling some fear and nonsense in the public. :roll:.

They did close newspapers though

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby linguoboy » 2017-11-19, 16:41

So is all the mainstream Spanish press going on and on about Russian interference so they don't have to address any of the legitimate issues raised by Catalonian secession or is that just El País?
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Osias » 2017-11-19, 19:34

Russian interference?
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