Independence for Catalonia

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Saim
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-11, 18:24

JackFrost wrote:Now you meant JxSí... PDeCat is Podem, which didn't never governed Catalonia. :P

Your mistrust is understandable too. I would just go for for leftist parties, but we need JxSí in the boat anyway.


PDeCat is the new name Convergència chose early this year (so it's one of the two parties in the JxSí coalition, along with ERC).

I have no problem with PDeCat being in the boat, what worries me is when they hog the wheel while pretending to share (the "Mas o març" debacle is the epitome of this). Especially if they're going to do sudden turns without building a consensus first.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-11, 23:09

Ahhh I totally forgot that the CiU changed its name. -.-
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-13, 17:58

The PSOE has come out with a proposal for "opening the debate for reform of the constitution" in six months. Since that constitutional reform could just as easily mean recentralisation (or even more likely, lead to another stalemate), I'm not sure why anyone in Catalonia would take that as Spain wanting to negotiate in good faith (especially since the "article 155!" PP and the "maybe a constitutional reform? or maybe not" PSOE are still doing their good cop-bad cop routine). The EU has also shown that it's not willing to do anything, which honestly was to be expected.

The CUP (Catalan radical Left) and the ANC (they organise all the massive protests) are now pressuring the government to lift the suspension of the declaration of independence. ERC (Catalan centre-left, part of the JxSí coalition) agrees with the CUP that there should be a specific time limit set for negotiation with Spain. It doesn't look like PDeCat will be able to drag out their Procés™ much longer.
Last edited by Saim on 2017-10-15, 17:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Osias » 2017-10-13, 19:43

http://www.gazetaonline.com.br/amp/noti ... 03355.html

"Brasileiro na Catalunha fala sobre momento de instabilidade política"
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-15, 16:16

Saim wrote:"article 155!"

Speaking of that, this is a good read.

It kinda relieves me because now I know they cannot suspend Catalonia's autonomy or call new elections or do actions against the statute and separation of powers or so on. The article only speaks of requiring the president to do things to return to "constitutional order". Not that I have an unyielding faith that they wouldn't cross a few fuzzy lines at all.

All I can say... Good luck with that, Rajoy. At the end, he'll have to consider sending in the troop or surrendering Catalonia for good.

It doesn't look like PDeCat will be able to drag out their Procés™ much longer.

Naw, it's Rajoy that's dragging it out. He should just sit down and shut up. :wink:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-16, 21:24

The leaders of Òmnium Cultural and the Catalan National Assembly (these are civil organisations; they help organise all the protests) are now in jail without the option for bail pending trial for sedition.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Osias » 2017-10-16, 22:36

Every time that Bicentennial Man quote about the price of freedom comes to my mind.
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-16, 23:38

And Puigdemont gave Rajoy an answer that he stops the repression and that he comes to speak to him within a period of two months. He definitely didn't confirm to have declared independence. Rajoy gave him until Thursday to cut it out and say if he has declared it or not all while once again refusing to negotiate with him.

Sometimes, I get a little feeling that Puigdemont is making smokescreens so he could sneakingly do some state-buildings.

Saim wrote:The leaders of Òmnium Cultural and the Catalan National Assembly (these are civil organisations; they help organise all the protests) are now in jail without the option for bail pending trial for sedition.

Yes... Sedition... In this era? :roll:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-22, 8:40

Spain is going to impose direct rule on Catalonia, taking over the government, the police and public TV and radio.

But hey, let's have a "dialogue" with Spain to try and resolve this within a constitutional framework. Billionth time's a charm. :D

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Osias » 2017-10-22, 12:27

2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-22, 15:18

Saim wrote:But hey, let's have a "dialogue" with Spain to try and resolve this within a constitutional framework. Billionth time's a charm. :D

A billionth time is a charm to keep those pesky Catalans in their place. They've been trying for three hundred years, you know. :D

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-26, 11:47

JackFrost wrote:Your mistrust is understandable too. I would just go for for leftist parties, but we need JxSí in the boat anyway.


Puigdemont just announced another round of elections. Yet another botiflerada.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-10-26, 12:54

Wait, what? Wasn't that what Rajoy wanted? I don't understand anything anymore... :-|
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Car » 2017-10-26, 13:58

It seems they're trying to turn it into more of a mess than Brexit...
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-26, 15:13

Now he says he's decided not to call elections because the Spanish government hasn't stopped applying article 155. :hmm:

Currently there is a session underway in the Spanish Senate regarding the application of article 155, and at 6 there'll be a session in the Catalan parliament.
Last edited by Saim on 2017-10-26, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-10-26, 15:18

But doesn't the Spanish government intend to apply article 155 and then call a new election? :hmm:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-26, 15:26

Luís wrote:But doesn't the Spanish government intend to apply article 155 and then call a new election? :hmm:


Yes, almost definitely having banned the CUP.

The thing is that the theoretical justification for 155 was that the Generalitat was going to declare independence, if they decide to apply it anyway when the Generalitat has called autonomous elections (hence not independence), this proves that they're applying 155 because they want to and not for any legalistic reasons (the whole "carregar-se de raons" strategy that the Catalan government has been talking about for years). At least that's the optimistic reading: the pessimistic reading is that Puigdemont is trying to save his own skin and is desperately asking for an olive branch from Spain.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-26, 23:56

Or maybe that Puigdemont is dealing with a rift in his own coalition. The ERC and hardcore sovereignist PDeCat members on one side are demanding a DUI whereas softcore sovereignist PDeCAT memebers wanted elections to avoid the 155 grand showdown and to cool down the crisis.

However, it seems that Madrid is definitely acting in bad faith because just last week, they said that it would be "fantastic" that Puigdemont call elections to save them the trouble going through the Senate for the 155 approval. Now, they're going to do it anyway despite Puigdemont deciding to call for elections with a condition that the 155 approval process be suspended. Apparently, they didn't like that condition.

Now Madrid just toned down the "severity" of the 155 by saying they might not take the reins of the TV3 and other communication systems owned by the Generalitat... Like, that'll be a game-changer. :roll:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-27, 13:32

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Visca! :partyhat:

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-27, 14:09

Visca!! :D
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