Independence for Catalonia

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הענט

Independence for Catalonia

Postby הענט » 2017-10-04, 11:33

I'm surprised no one has touched upon this subject yet.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-10-04, 11:36

I suppose you haven't checked the Random Politics Thread.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby linguoboy » 2017-10-04, 17:11

I'm surprised you don't know how to do a forum search for "Catalonia".
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הענט

Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby הענט » 2017-10-05, 9:24

Okie dokie.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-09, 15:29

I might actually start posting here because I don't want to drown out posts on other topics or countries in the politics thread, especially since this issue is only going to get more "interesting" from here.

The vicesecretary of communications for the Partido Popular just implied that Puigdemont (current president of Catalonia) could end up like Lluís Companys (declared the Catalan Republic in 1931 and was later executed by the Franco regime).

http://www.ara.cat/politica/PP-manifest ... 11657.html

:?

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-10, 17:17

The president is talking in the Catalan parlament to "talk about the referendum results". We'll see soon if he declares independence.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-10-10, 18:38

So, the first measure taken by an independent Catalonia was to suspend its own independence... :hmm:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Osias » 2017-10-10, 19:15

What.
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Levike » 2017-10-10, 20:37

Luís wrote:So, the first measure taken by an independent Catalonia was to suspend its own independence... :hmm:

Din't he do that in order to begin some sort of dialog with Madrid?

And I'm guessing because of the fear of Madrid applying desperate last-minute measures.
Ex: Revoking their autonomous status and taking control of Catalonia.
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-10, 20:41

Only in Catalonia. :lol:

Perhaps this was just a move to prove to the international community how uninterested Spain is in negotiating. Madrid has so far said that they're taking it as a declaration of independence and "it's unacceptable to declare and suspend independence" (???) so it doesn't seem like Puigdemont's call to dialogue (again? haven't we been doing this since 2012?) is going to go anywhere.

The CUP doesn't seem to agree with Puigdemont which kind of worries me... And I really doubt Europe will intervene even if Spain does bring out the tanks (I could be wrong though).

Levike wrote:And I'm guessing because of the fear of Madrid applying desperate last-minute measures.
Ex: Revoking their autonomous status and taking control of Catalonia.


I have an inkling they might do it anyway...

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-10, 23:43

One thing to say here: I find it baffling that a minority people must ask permission from the majority to hold a referendum of that nature... We Quebecois certainly didn't damn need to ask any from Ottawa. That's just a form of tyranny of the majority to me. :roll:

Levike wrote:Ex: Revoking their autonomous status and taking control of Catalonia.

It will be then a foreign occupying force. :wink:

Saim wrote:Perhaps this was just a move to prove to the international community how uninterested Spain is in negotiating.

It is... You're not the only one to see that. It's a move to show Rajoy is more interested using force, violence, and whatnot than talks. It's an example of good faith from Pugdemont, although he doesn't really expect any breakthroughs overall.

It amazes me that Rajoy is going that far to purposefully put the whole country in a major constitutional crisis not seen since the end of the dictatorship, if not the civil war. Someone should remind him that constitutions aren't fossils or bibles (well, shouldn't be made so), but living trees that are capable of evolving with time. And one cannot have a good one when a significant chunk of the country aren't supporting it. Constitutions are made by the people and serve them as a social pact and are good as long as the people are virtually supportive.

Oh yeah, he should be reminded that the current constitution isn't Spain's first one. Franco ditched the previous one with a simple signature and created a whole new one literally out of his ass.

The CUP doesn't seem to agree with Puigdemont which kind of worries me...

They just don't like waiting a bit more, which is understandable because I'm impressed how long Catalonia is taking to go there. Because they've been slacking around for a few years.

(again? haven't we been doing this since 2012?)

Maybe a bit longer. :lol:

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-11, 6:50

Yasna wrote:
Saim wrote:Estatut 2006, LOMCE, pobresa energètica, bullfighting. Why won't you address any of the attacks Catalan autonomy has been under from the Spanish media and "constitutional" court?

You know this conflict didn't start on Sunday, right?

Because I don't care about most of what is said in the Spanish media. It's mostly just sideshows and theatrics anyway. And fundamentally I don't have much sympathy for Catalan self-determination because I think international law on the matter is quite reasonable and Catalonia simply doesn't qualify. As the Economist wrote, "Catalonia, however, hardly counts as colonised, occupied or oppressed. Many Spaniards worry that its secession could swiftly be followed by that of the Basque country. If the rule of law is to mean anything, the constitution should be upheld."

Where did you get this information from, the gods? The Economist?

"The Catalan government’s own pollster finds that while 70% want a referendum on the territory’s future, only 48% do if Spanish government doesn’t agree—which it emphatically does not."

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17


Yasna, if you're not going to address any specific aspects of the conflict (the use of the courts to strike down Catalan laws and unilaterally change the Catalan education system, widespread Catalanophobia in Spain, the fact that one to two million people have been protesting on a yearly basis, the Francoist legacy of the current Spanish legal framework, police brutality), then I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here.

The reason I mentioned Spanish and Catalan media is not because I think they're fundamentally better than that of other countries, it's because I've noticed that they report on a whole lot that no-one has heard of outside of Spain or even Catalonia. It would be good if you were to consider the conflict in its entirety and not base everything you're saying on the Economist's opinion of what happened on the 1st of October, as if that was the first time anything happened in Catalonia and everything was normal from 1978 to 2016.

Since you don't seem to care about actually knowing about the conflict, I can only interpret the sentence "If you actually care about Catalonia, it's beyond me how you can continue to cheer on the separatists" as concern trolling.

JackFrost wrote:They just don't like waiting a bit more, which is understandable because I'm impressed how long Catalonia is taking to go there. Because they've been slacking around for a few years.
[...]
Maybe a bit longer. :lol:


I just don't trust PDeCat. The Oct 1 referendum proves that they could have done this in 2014 instead of the "non-binding popular consultation" that they even backed away from at the last moment. The international community has only just now started paying attention to what's even going on, so all those years carregant-nos de raons (making sure to have a solid case) were a total waste.

Have we forgotten how they governed with the abstention of the PP before 2012?
Have we forgotten how they backed away from Artur Mas's non-binding popular consultation at the last moment without consulting ERC or the CUP?
Have we forgotten how they refused to call the 2015 elections (the eleccions plebiscitàries) unless ERC would go in coalition with them?
Have we forgotten how the 2015 elections were supposed to be "the vote of your life", but it's taken two years for them to do literally anything? That that was the second time since 2012 that PDeCat called early elections?

Have we forgotten how they told the CUP that if they don't accept Artur Mas as President in 2015, there will be no referendum (even though that was part of their electoral programme)? Not only that, but they replaced him with Pugidemont literally hours before new elections would be declared automatically, and then immediately started worshiping Puigdemont as if nothing had happened! They even suggested that this shows how magnanimous Mas is, even though he did it after they had already forced ERC to accept a coalition with them and harassed the CUP until they realised that they weren't going to budge.

Have we forgotten how they told the CUP that if the CUP didn't vote for their budget there wouldn't be a referendum (even though, again, the referendum was their electoral promise)?

It seems like a good move on the face of it but every other time they've resorted to "seny" to "carregar-se de raons" it's gone nowhere and they've just extended their Procés.
Last edited by Saim on 2017-10-11, 9:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-11, 7:13

Rajoy is now meeting with government ministers to decide whether to apply article 255 (suspending Catalan autonomy). I hope he does it de jure and not just de facto so that we can end this Procés already.

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-10-11, 7:33

Saim wrote:all those years carregant-nos de raons (making sure to have a solid case) were a total waste.

That sounds like something I have done so many times in my life. :para:

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-11, 10:53

So Rajoy has done the smartest thing he could do given the circumstances/his ideology. He hasn't declared article 155, instead asking Puigdemont to explain clearly whether he's declared independence or not and depending on the answer then he'll apply 155. It seems like Puigdemont was banking more on the Spanish government being made up of total idiots... although we'll still see if they manage to screw up again (they do have a promising track record).

vijayjohn wrote:
Saim wrote:all those years carregant-nos de raons (making sure to have a solid case) were a total waste.

That sounds like something I have done so many times in my life. :para:


Maybe you're secretly Catalan?

Speaking of the Economist:

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I think he's from the PP or Ciudadanos. He said "in English pain doesn't mean pena (pity), it means dolor!". :lol:

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Luís » 2017-10-11, 11:03

Saim wrote: instead asking Puigdemont to explain clearly whether he's declared independence or not


I'm curious to see what his answer will be, but I suppose it'll probably be something ambiguous.

We can call it Schrödinger's independence... :lol:
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Saim » 2017-10-11, 11:36

Luís wrote:I'm curious to see what his answer will be, but I suppose it'll probably be something ambiguous.

We can call it Schrödinger's independence... :lol:


And then Rajoy will say "dialogue is only possible within the law and the constitution, we don't need mediation, please tell us whether you've declared independence or not", and then Puigdemont will say "we've declared independence and suspended it to allow for the possibility of dialogue", and then Rajoy will say...

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-10-11, 14:28

Saim wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Saim wrote:all those years carregant-nos de raons (making sure to have a solid case) were a total waste.

That sounds like something I have done so many times in my life. :para:


Maybe you're secretly Catalan?

That would explain a lot. :lol: (Either that or my old friend was secretly LA CATALANIZADORA)

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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby Yasna » 2017-10-11, 16:17

Saim wrote:the use of the courts to strike down Catalan laws and unilaterally change the Catalan education system,

A legitimate grievance. Does not amount to "colonialism, foreign invasion or gross discrimination and abuse of human rights." Should continue to be dealt with within the constitutional framework.

widespread Catalanophobia in Spain,

Unfortunate, but there are biases in every country. And the biases in Spain obviously aren't serious enough to hinder Catalonia from thriving, indeed thriving even more than the rest of Spain. Largely irrelevant to a discussion about independence.

the fact that one to two million people have been protesting on a yearly basis,

So what? Protests don't grant a movement rights.

the Francoist legacy of the current Spanish legal framework, police brutality),

A legitimate grievance. Does not amount to "colonialism, foreign invasion or gross discrimination and abuse of human rights." Should continue to be dealt with within the constitutional framework.

The reason I mentioned Spanish and Catalan media is not because I think they're fundamentally better than that of other countries, it's because I've noticed that they report on a whole lot that no-one has heard of outside of Spain or even Catalonia. It would be good if you were to consider the conflict in its entirety and not base everything you're saying on the Economist's opinion of what happened on the 1st of October, as if that was the first time anything happened in Catalonia and everything was normal from 1978 to 2016.

I do read Spanish media, and I quoted it earlier in this discussion (El País).

I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this discussion though. Myself, a vast majority of Spaniards, and the leaders of Europe have listened to your case for independence, and we're simply not convinced.

Mario Vargas Llosa summed it up best.

"¿Habrá hoy referéndum en Cataluña? Espero ardientemente que, en un acto de sensatez, la Generalitat lo haya desconvocado, pero, de otro lado, sé de sobra los altos niveles de testarudez e irrealidad que conlleva todo nacionalismo, de manera que no es imposible que, pese a todo —y este “todo” es muchísimo—, los dirigentes del Govern catalán se empeñen en incitar a sus partidarios a desobedecer la ley y votar. Si ocurre así, el llamado referéndum será una caricatura de consulta, írrita a la legalidad, sin censo de votantes, ni urnas autorizadas, ni compromisarios, ni padrones electorales, con un porcentaje mínimo de participantes y sólo independentistas, es decir, el monólogo patético de una minoría ciega y sorda a la racionalidad, pues, según las encuestas, por lo menos dos tercios de los catalanes admiten que el referéndum carece de validez legal. Sólo servirá para alimentar el victimismo, ingrediente esencial de toda ideología nacionalista, y acusar al Gobierno español de haber violentado la democracia impidiendo al pueblo catalán ejercer su derecho a decidir su destino mediante la más pacífica y civilizada manera democrática, que es votar."

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/29/opinion/1506690046_114565.html
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Re: Independence for Catalonia

Postby JackFrost » 2017-10-11, 16:36

Saim wrote:I just don't trust PDeCat.

I was confused for a bit...

Now you meant JxSí... PDeCat is Podem, which didn't never governed Catalonia. :P

Your mistrust is understandable too. I would just go for for leftist parties, but we need JxSí in the boat anyway.

Yasna wrote:So what? Protests don't grant a movement rights.

They gave us the weekend, minimum wage, work-hour limits, civil rights, universal suffrage... Do I need to go on further?
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