European refugee crisis [split]

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Патрислав Андреевич

Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-09-10, 23:18

vijayjohn wrote:
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:Should they be given everything they want?

No one is given everything they want.

So I don't understand why we should allow them to go wherever they wish.

So why don't they respect the local laws and why do they continue, trespassing multiple countries?

How are they supposed to know what the local laws are?

As refugees in refugee camps in Greece and whatnot they don't have to. But then when going to another country, you must know the local laws like everybody else. Ignorantia juris non excusat. And don't tell me they're stupid, trespassing through country border is prohibited everywhere. (And while some countries have bilateral agreements about free movement of people, it's an exception to the rule, and limitations apply.)

By the time they cross Macedonian border they can hardly be called "refugees."

Why not? Where they are in Europe makes no difference to whether they're fleeing violence or not.

Because by the time they're in Europe they're not fleeing violence anymore. They're considered refugees in the first country they get to. But then they escape again? From what?

Serbs can't pass the Hungarian border without a passport, and can do so only in specified points. Why should those immigrants be privileged?

How are they supposed to get a passport?

They're not supposed to. Syrian passports exist. Anyway, if they're real refugees, they should seek asylum in the country they first get to. They probably won't have the right of free movement but they'll be legal and safe. Shouldn't that be a refugee's goal?

Immigration to Britain and Finland doesn't involve illegally crossing borders of multiple countries in such big numbers, comparable to a march of an army,

How do you know?

Because we'd hear about it. An army of (tens of) thousands of immigrants marching to Britain or Finland wouldn't be easy to miss.

and making a mess, stopping communication of one of the main train stations in the region.

Oh, boo hoo, they prevented a train station from functioning normally! For this crime, they should DIE.

See the discrepancy between what they did (according to you, anyway) and what people want to do to them as a result?

If people want them to die, what exactly do they have to be grateful for? I'm not going to be grateful towards someone who wants me to die.

Who's talking about dying? They could be imprisoned or sent back if not obeying the law. And that's exactly what Orbán's government will do with any illegal immigrant found in the country who hasn't registered. Finally some balls, gotta love him for that.

And anyway, so it's normal that thousands of people come and paralyze the entire country? And it's the hosts' fault that they don't let said people do whatever the fuck they want?

If it's so easy for a swarm of people to just walk through a border of any European country... then I'd rather not think about the consequences. :nope:

Koko

Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Koko » 2015-09-10, 23:28

I can kinda sympathize with Levike and Patrislav, but in a practical and logical sense.

"Oh yay! We arrove to this country that is so much safer than Syria. Hmm, but let's just walk our way to Central Europe because that's where everybody else is going. See ya' pleasant country we stayed in for two seconds."

Honestly, I'd stay in whatever country was willing to take me in than disregard their offer and go to another for whatever reason. It's a little rude in that sense too. If they had just originally kept to the country they first found safety in, this whole problem wouldn't even be! The only problem that would exist is that eventually certain countries would get too full, and so then they have reason to keep the refugees from entering (so then no one can say that the refugees are wrong to enter other countries, and nor could one say the full country is wrong to keep them out). I don't agree with what's been said to solve this solution, but I understand the frustration. Both sides are wrong of course, so I'm honestly apethetic to what the solution may be right now and just want us all to come to some conclusion.

Is it just me, or does this issue kinda make you lose even more faith in humanity the more the two sides bicker?

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-11, 1:41

IpseDixit wrote:There might be some open-minded people in those places but I think Europe shouldn't risk too much.

Of course if you can prove that I'm wrong, I'll be glad to change my mind.

How about this, then, as an example? Wouldn't you say this is a Syrian person contributing something valuable, in Europe, in the area of LGBT rights?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQtugcXQag
Besides, what exactly do you expect immigrants to do to you in a country that is not theirs? How much do you seriously expect them to get away with? How much have you ever heard of an immigrant getting away with?
Levike wrote:Vijay, congrats, you're a real keyboard-warrior, aren't you?! :P

Thanks, but speak for yourself. :P Seriously, though, like I said, my parents are immigrants, and you started out talking about immigrants (and refugees). Sure, it's a specific group of immigrants, but still, I had something to say about that because I think my background gives me a pretty different perspective on the issue of immigration from you, just in general. Then a discussion about that ensued and I was just trying to defend my views (like I'm doing now, in this post). I'm not really expecting to get anyone who's quoted me so far (including you) to agree with them. And like I said, I'm not expecting you to change my mind, either. So I don't know why we're even bothering to have this argument in the first place.

I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. Are you?
But a lot of them want the whole sausage and aren't satisfied with even Germany.

In which case my question to you is, why? From their perspective. Why do you think they're not satisfied? What do they have to say for themselves?
Law counts more then people's opinions and personal beliefs about morals.

Oh? How about your own then? And law is made based on people's opinions and personal beliefs. There's no reason why it should be made based exclusively on xenophobic beliefs. There are two sides to every issue.
A few Arab countries have homophobic policies and their populations are more likely to be homophobic.

So? A few European countries have homophobic policies, too. And how does policy determine how likely the people are to be homophobic?
They are more likely.

How do you know that?
They already succeeded in fleeing violence once they got to Turkey or Jordan.

Because Eastern Europe has an impeccable human rights record wrt foreigners. :roll:
I'm saying it once again, countries can decide on who gets in and who doesn't.

People can also join the 21st century.
Varislintu wrote:I don't think you can completely equate a usual, constant trickle of immigrants (who go through normal border procedures) and who move country due to individual reasons, and a wave of refugees who are escaping a big social disaster within a few years time.

(Don't get me wrong, I read the whole post, but I'm not quoting it here because it's kind of long, and this post is even longer already :lol:).

I agree that refugees and immigrants are not the same thing, and I can understand that there are very real, serious problems with accepting a huge number of refugees. And for all I know, maybe all of you know more about that than I do, but even I know that at the very least, feeding, lodging, and granting asylum to large numbers of refugees all at once is not a trivial matter. But what I take issue with is how people choose to react to this issue. Instead of having a productive discussion of how to resolve this problem and what the problems are from both perspectives, the discussion has proceeded again and again with little more than selfish, xenophobic remarks that take only the European perspective into account. It's as if no one even cares what they have to say for themselves.

And some of y'all are apparently taking issue with the fact that these people are Syrian. Syria is closer to all of us geographically than India is, and for some of you, it's even closer than the US is. My culture is even harder for you to relate to than theirs is. So what position does that put me in then, did you ever think of that? You may think that as part of the Western world, your values, etc. are superior to those of the rest of the world. You may tell me that everyone including me should be themselves, feel free to explore their sexuality, and so on and so forth. But when you express your perception of a group of people as a huge threat apparently just because they're different from you, and those people are less different from you than I am, how do you expect me to trust you?

If even they have to put up with so much hate from you, just how safe am I on this forum? Ask yourselves that!
There was mention that the refugees might not know about the local laws, but this is in my understanding not the case. TV is currently full of refugee interviews and spotlights, and they are not ignorant.

Cool.
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:So I don't understand why we should allow them to go wherever they wish.

And I don't understand why y'all are making that big of a deal out of it. (And for...is this the third time now? :lol: I don't think I ever will, either).
Because by the time they're in Europe they're not fleeing violence anymore. They're considered refugees in the first country they get to. But then they escape again? From what?

Just because Eastern Europe is not Syria doesn't mean they can't face violence there, too. But anyway, it seems like your point is that they are refugees from the war in Syria, not from something happening in Eastern Europe (just to be clear).
They're not supposed to. Syrian passports exist.

And they are supposed to get those how?
Anyway, if they're real refugees, they should seek asylum in the country they first get to. They probably won't have the right of free movement but they'll be legal and safe.

Will they really be safe? Does the country want them there, and if not, then how can they possibly be safe there? They're not.
Who's talking about dying?

You did!
They could be imprisoned or sent back if not obeying the law.

And sending them back is practically leaving them to die.
And that's exactly what Orbán's government will do with any illegal immigrant found in the country who hasn't registered. Finally some balls, gotta love him for that.

Oh yeah, sending thousands of people to their deaths. So brave and manly.
And anyway, so it's normal that thousands of people come and paralyze the entire country? And it's the hosts' fault that they don't let said people do whatever the fuck they want?

No. But there's a middle ground between that extreme and the other extreme of sending them all back or imprisoning them all.
Koko wrote:Honestly, I'd stay in whatever country was willing to take me in than disregard their offer and go to another for whatever reason.

The issue as far as I can tell so far is that no one really wants to take them in. No country seems to be interested in taking all of them in, but some countries don't seem to be interested in taking any of them in, either, which makes it difficult at best to divide them among the European countries.

Koko

Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Koko » 2015-09-11, 2:39

The issue as far as I can tell so far is that no one really wants to take them in. No country seems to be interested in taking all of them in, but some countries don't seem to be interested in taking any of them in, either, which makes it difficult at best to divide them among the European countries.

Well, they still have a whole lot of choices of sanctuaries, even if their caretakers are only grudgingly offering help.

I think they're smart enough to know that not all of them will fit in a single [European!] country, and should realize that flocking to a single meeting place is bad economically and socially. So if they choose to do this, any backlash is called for; refugee or not. Sure, you're running from violence, but you're not making a good first impression by selfishly hogging one country (Germany as far as I can tell) as your sanctuary. Just take what you can get and worry about your family first. Do you really want your family to be chased by police?

I have little knowledge on this, so take my opinion(s) with a grain of salt, but I don't think many countries actually refused refugees at the very beginning. It seems to me like this whole problem started because the refugees decided Germany(?) was the place to be and ignored other countries offers (ie, illegally crossing borders). They're clearly making a conscious decision to break this law, and I see no reason to let them do this. Once they arrive in a "safe" country that takes them in, they are refugees. Once they actively and consciously ignore this, they must be held responsible for their actions.

And please do correct me if I'm wrong in any statement.
Last edited by Koko on 2015-09-11, 2:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-11, 2:42

Koko wrote:I have little knowledge on this, so take my opinion(s) with a grain of salt

Me, too, so that's okay. It's just the xenophobia in this discussion I have an issue with, really.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby md0 » 2015-09-11, 6:04

Honestly, I'd stay in whatever country was willing to take me in than disregard their offer and go to another for whatever reason. It's a little rude in that sense too.

When the Syrian Civil War was still fresh, or when one of the previous wars (Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran...) would be going on, they would stay in Turkey, Greece, and Cyprus. Guess why new refugees avoid those countries even though they would be the most logical place to stop.
http://www.35-33.com/critical-health-co ... er-strike/ (<- they live in Cyprus for more than 10 years, but not allowed to work or to get travel documents)
http://www.35-33.com/fascist-grandpa-ap ... ugee-camp/
http://www.35-33.com/syrian-refugee-fou ... es-garden/

You really can't understand what the deal is for a gay person like me to see swarms of people coming to this continent from homophobic and sexist cultures?

Do not exploit our struggles for your racist goals, you Le Pen-admiring shit (your own admission in this forum).
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Varislintu » 2015-09-11, 6:27

vijayjohn wrote:
But a lot of them want the whole sausage and aren't satisfied with even Germany.

In which case my question to you is, why? From their perspective. Why do you think they're not satisfied? What do they have to say for themselves?


They say:

1) Work opportunities (Germany especially), and
2) previous family being there (Germany and Sweden especially).
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-09-11, 6:46

A rational meaningful discussion is impossible with

1. causal accusation of racism and xenophobia
2. appeal to emotions (pathos)

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Marah » 2015-09-11, 7:22

By the way, why hasn't Saudi Arabia accepted any refugees now? I mean, what are the geopolitical reasons?

I don't know if they can be considered refugees anymore when they decide to go to Germany or Sweden though they are already safe from war in the first European country they set foot in. They become economic migrants then, in my opinion.

I doubt they can easily integrate in Western Europe because social welfare works as a poverty trap and they're not going to feel very welcome, Europeans are not too fond of Muslims migrants because they don't think the migrants from the 60's integrated society very well (in France at least). Part of that was our fault with the ghettos and overly generous welfare but I also think that they didn't have the same views on what defines success as the locals. Unlike maybe East Asian migrants who put high value on education and economic success which is probably why they integrate better in European countries.

That being said the younger generations of Muslims in Western Europe are definitely better integrated than their parents or grand parents and I think that it will be the trend now: a cultural homogenization
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Levike » 2015-09-11, 7:44

vijayjohn wrote:I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. Are you?

Yup. :yep:

I wanted to say that in Malayalam, but once I google it a found a ton of words for "yes". :|

I just got pissed at the Romanian prime-minister. :x

Law counts more then people's opinions and personal beliefs about morals.

Oh? How about your own then? And law is made based on people's opinions and personal beliefs. There's no reason why it should be made based exclusively on xenophobic beliefs. There are two sides to every issue.

There are a lot of laws I don't agree with, but I still obey them.

According to the current one they are comitting a crime.

A few European countries have homophobic policies, too. And how does policy determine how likely the people are to be homophobic?
They are more likely.

How do you know that?

Your background influences you.

Based on my country I'm more likely to commit crime than let's say someone from Denmark.
So if a country preferrred the Danes as opposed to my co-citizens, I'd totally understand the reason.

I'm saying it once again, countries can decide on who gets in and who doesn't.

People can also join the 21st century.

Since when does "undocumented people going from country to country" equal the 21st century.

In that case even Denmark is no better than us.

But anyway, it seems like your point is that they are refugees from the war in Syria, not from something happening in Eastern Europe (just to be clear).

They are being offered food, shelter and they have the option to register.

Will they really be safe? Does the country want them there, and if not, then how can they possibly be safe there? They're not.

If you compare it to what they've experienced in Syria, then Austria for example should be a heavenly place.

From there and Hungary upwards their only excuse is "it's wealthier".

And that's exactly what Orbán's government will do with any illegal immigrant found in the country who hasn't registered. Finally some balls, gotta love him for that.

Oh yeah, sending thousands of people to their deaths. So brave and manly.

Being deported to Serbia does not equal dying.

Koko wrote:The issue as far as I can tell so far is that no one really wants to take them in. No country seems to be interested in taking all of them in, but some countries don't seem to be interested in taking any of them in, either, which makes it difficult at best to divide them among the European countries.

Jordan has an insane number of refugees and this country should be provided support from us.

Koko wrote:I have little knowledge on this, so take my opinion(s) with a grain of salt, but I don't think many countries actually refused refugees at the very beginning. It seems to me like this whole problem started because the refugees decided Germany(?) was the place to be and ignored other countries offers (ie, illegally crossing borders). They're clearly making a conscious decision to break this law, and I see no reason to let them do this. Once they arrive in a "safe" country that takes them in, they are refugees. Once they actively and consciously ignore this, they must be held responsible for their actions.

And please do correct me if I'm wrong in any statement.

You're 100% right. :yep:

IpseDixit

Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-09-11, 9:24

vijayjohn wrote:How about this, then, as an example? Wouldn't you say this is a Syrian person contributing something valuable, in Europe, in the area of LGBT rights?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQtugcXQag


One single person should change my mind?

Besides, what exactly do you expect immigrants to do to you in a country that is not theirs?


If they get citizenship, they can express their bigoted views in ballot boxes.

How much do you seriously expect them to get away with? How much have you ever heard of an immigrant getting away with?


What do you mean?
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2015-09-11, 9:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby kevin » 2015-09-11, 9:34

Marah wrote:I don't know if they can be considered refugees anymore when they decide to go to Germany or Sweden though they are already safe from war in the first European country they set foot in. They become economic migrants then, in my opinion.

It depends. For example, like Varislintu said, for some the reason is that they have family here and I would consider that as a valid reason.

In fact, I'm generally not very happy with the notion that either your life is threatened or you are an "economic migrant". There are enough people that are treated like shit by the society in their home countries, and while our law says that that's not a reason for asylum (and indeed I'm afraid we can't help everyone) I don't think it's fair to imply that they are coming only because of economical advantages.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Marah » 2015-09-11, 10:08

I would tend to consider that a valid reason as well. Ultimately, all migrants migrate in hopes of getting a better life and that's often related to economic reasons.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby loqu » 2015-09-11, 12:56

Levike wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:How are they breaking the law? Which law and whose law are they breaking?

Crossing the border anywhere else than the checkpoints is illegal.

That is not how Schengen works. And if Hungary can get away with all its racist and xenophobic bullshit, it's the perfect proof that the EU is a fiasco and should be dismantled.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-09-11, 13:00

loqu wrote:
Levike wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:How are they breaking the law? Which law and whose law are they breaking?

Crossing the border anywhere else than the checkpoints is illegal.

That is not how Schengen works. And if Hungary can get away with all its racist and xenophobic bullshit, it's the perfect proof that the EU is a fiasco and should be dismantled.


Serbia is not in the Schengen area.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby Levike » 2015-09-11, 13:01

loqu wrote:
Levike wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:How are they breaking the law? Which law and whose law are they breaking?

Crossing the border anywhere else than the checkpoints is illegal.

That is not how Schengen works. And if Hungary can get away with all its racist and xenophobic bullshit, it's the perfect proof that the EU is a fiasco and should be dismantled.

Serbia is not in the Schengen zone and Hungary is obliged to protect the Schengen zone's outer borders. That is its borders with Serbia and Ukraine.

Romania and Bulgaria applied for Schengen membership and one of the reasons they didn't yet get accepted was the lack of outer-border protection.

Sorry for "trying" to protect our borders. :twisted: I say "trying" 'cause seemingly we're not that successful at it.

IpseDixit

Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-09-11, 13:07

Moreover I don't get why everybody is picking on Hungary. The left-wing gov't of France is doing the same in Ventimiglia, on the border with Italy, and in this case both countries are in the Schengen area.

Plus, Spain does have a wall with Morocco, built exactly with the same purpose of the Hungarian one, but I've never heard anybody accusing Spain of racism for this reason.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2015-09-11, 13:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-11, 13:10

Ludwig Whitby wrote:A rational meaningful discussion is impossible with

1. causal accusation of racism and xenophobia
2. appeal to emotions (pathos)

As if you don't resort to both of these yourself.

I think history indicates to us that xenophobic policies are not even sustainable, in which case they ultimately hurt you as much as they hurt immigrants themselves.
Levike wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. Are you?

Yup. :yep:

I wanted to say that in Malayalam, but once I google it a found a ton of words for "yes". :|

:lol: Yeah, there are a lot. I'm not even sure what the appropriate one in this context would be. :D I guess I'd have to reformulate this entire exchange (I mean my quote and your response here, not the whole argument!) in Malayalam to figure that out. (EDIT: Actually, in this context, probably the most appropriate response would be sammadichu 'agreed').

One more question for you, though, just to make sure:
Being deported to Serbia does not equal dying.

You do mean Syria, don't you? :lol:
IpseDixit wrote:One single person should change my mind?

Not necessarily. But like I said, he's just an example.
If they get citizenship, they can express their bigoted views in ballot boxes.

How easy is it for them to get citizenship?
How much do you seriously expect them to get away with? How much have you ever heard of an immigrant getting away with?


What do you mean?

Immigrants do not (generally) govern the countries where they live. Even in a democracy, it's the majority of the citizens that determines what rights they do and don't have. An immigrant is going to have no more power to discriminate against you just for being gay than an old Italian man.
Moreover I don't get why everybody is picking on Hungary.

On UniLang? Because that's all anyone is even talking about.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby loqu » 2015-09-11, 13:13

Since there were sentences like this one,
Levike wrote:Yes, but I speak the language, have a job and more importantly didn't jump any fences.

I understood you meant the borders of Hungary, in general.

Still the fact that you consider yourself better than people who are escaping war just because you didn't jump any fence, is quite disgusting. After all, you didn't have any need to jump a fence. Those people are not jumping out of desire for adventure, you know?

Apparently the concept of refugee is quite difficult for most Europeans to understand.

IpseDixit wrote:Moreover I don't get why everybody is picking on Hungary. The left-wing gov't of France is doing the same in Ventimiglia, on the border with Italy, and in this case both countries are in the Schengen area.

The fact that self-appointed "left-wing" also resorts to those policies don't make them any better. And let me know, is France building up any wall or fence in their borders?
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IpseDixit

Re: Random complaints and advice thread 4

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-09-11, 13:17

loqu wrote:And let me know, is France building up any wall or fence in their borders?


Nope, right, that's your country.

France is only using cordons of policemen to keep the refugees out. I don't see much difference though.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2015-09-11, 13:21, edited 1 time in total.


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