IpseDixit wrote:There might be some open-minded people in those places but I think Europe shouldn't risk too much.
Of course if you can prove that I'm wrong, I'll be glad to change my mind.
How about this, then, as an example? Wouldn't you say this is a Syrian person contributing something valuable, in Europe, in the area of LGBT rights?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQtugcXQagBesides, what exactly do you expect immigrants to do to you in a country that is not theirs? How much do you seriously expect them to get away with? How much have you ever heard of an immigrant getting away with?
Levike wrote:Vijay, congrats, you're a real keyboard-warrior, aren't you?!
Thanks, but speak for yourself.
Seriously, though, like I said, my parents are immigrants, and you started out talking about immigrants (and refugees). Sure, it's a specific group of immigrants, but still, I had something to say about that because I think my background gives me a pretty different perspective on the issue of immigration from you, just in general. Then a discussion about that ensued and I was just trying to defend my views (like I'm doing now, in this post). I'm not really expecting to get anyone who's quoted me so far (including you) to agree with them. And like I said, I'm not expecting you to change my mind, either. So I don't know why we're even bothering to have this argument in the first place.
I'm more than willing to agree to disagree. Are you?
But a lot of them want the whole sausage and aren't satisfied with even Germany.
In which case my question to you is, why? From their perspective. Why do you think they're not satisfied? What do
they have to say for themselves?
Law counts more then people's opinions and personal beliefs about morals.
Oh? How about your own then? And law is made based on people's opinions and personal beliefs. There's no reason why it should be made based exclusively on xenophobic beliefs. There are two sides to every issue.
A few Arab countries have homophobic policies and their populations are more likely to be homophobic.
So? A few European countries have homophobic policies, too. And how does policy determine how likely the people are to be homophobic?
They are more likely.
How do
you know that?
They already succeeded in fleeing violence once they got to Turkey or Jordan.
Because Eastern Europe has an impeccable human rights record wrt foreigners.
I'm saying it once again, countries can decide on who gets in and who doesn't.
People can also join the 21st century.
Varislintu wrote:I don't think you can completely equate a usual, constant trickle of immigrants (who go through normal border procedures) and who move country due to individual reasons, and a wave of refugees who are escaping a big social disaster within a few years time.
(Don't get me wrong, I read the whole post, but I'm not quoting it here because it's kind of long, and this post is even longer already
).
I agree that refugees and immigrants are not the same thing, and I can understand that there are very real, serious problems with accepting a huge number of refugees. And for all I know, maybe
all of you know more about that than I do, but even I know that at the very least, feeding, lodging, and granting asylum to large numbers of refugees all at once is not a trivial matter. But what I take issue with is how people choose to react to this issue. Instead of having a productive discussion of how to resolve this problem and what the problems are from
both perspectives, the discussion has proceeded again and again with little more than selfish, xenophobic remarks that take only the European perspective into account. It's as if no one even cares what they have to say for themselves.
And some of y'all are apparently taking issue with the fact that these people are Syrian. Syria is closer to all of us geographically than India is, and for some of you, it's even closer than the US is. My culture is even harder for you to relate to than theirs is. So what position does that put
me in then, did you ever think of that? You may think that as part of the Western world, your values, etc. are superior to those of the rest of the world. You may tell me that everyone including me should be themselves, feel free to explore their sexuality, and so on and so forth. But when you express your perception of a group of people as a huge threat apparently just because they're different from you, and those people are less different from you than I am, how do you expect me to trust you?
If even they have to put up with so much hate from you, just how safe am I on this forum? Ask yourselves that!
There was mention that the refugees might not know about the local laws, but this is in my understanding not the case. TV is currently full of refugee interviews and spotlights, and they are not ignorant.
Cool.
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:So I don't understand why we should allow them to go wherever they wish.
And I don't understand why y'all are making
that big of a deal out of it. (And for...is this the third time now?
I don't think I ever will, either).
Because by the time they're in Europe they're not fleeing violence anymore. They're considered refugees in the first country they get to. But then they escape again? From what?
Just because Eastern Europe is not Syria doesn't mean they can't face violence there, too. But anyway, it seems like your point is that they are refugees from the war in Syria, not from something happening in Eastern Europe (just to be clear).
They're not supposed to. Syrian passports exist.
And they are supposed to get those how?
Anyway, if they're real refugees, they should seek asylum in the country they first get to. They probably won't have the right of free movement but they'll be legal and safe.
Will they really be safe? Does the country want them there, and if not, then how can they possibly be safe there? They're not.
Who's talking about dying?
You did!
They could be imprisoned or sent back if not obeying the law.
And sending them back is practically leaving them to die.
And that's exactly what Orbán's government will do with any illegal immigrant found in the country who hasn't registered. Finally some balls, gotta love him for that.
Oh yeah, sending thousands of people to their deaths. So
brave and
manly.
And anyway, so it's normal that thousands of people come and paralyze the entire country? And it's the hosts' fault that they don't let said people do whatever the fuck they want?
No. But there's a middle ground between that extreme and the other extreme of sending them all back or imprisoning them all.
Koko wrote:Honestly, I'd stay in whatever country was willing to take me in than disregard their offer and go to another for whatever reason.
The issue as far as I can tell so far is that no one really wants to take them in. No country seems to be interested in taking
all of them in, but some countries don't seem to be interested in taking any of them in, either, which makes it difficult at best to divide them among the European countries.
United States (United States) 
Germany (Deutschland) 
Finland (Suomi) 
Serbia (Србија) 
France (France) 
Hungary (Magyarország) 
I guess I'd have to reformulate this entire exchange (I mean my quote and your response here, not the whole argument!) in Malayalam to figure that out. (EDIT: Actually, in this context, probably the most appropriate response would be sammadichu 'agreed').