European refugee crisis [split]

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Levike
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-18, 10:09

TeneReef wrote:Croatia was subjected to heavy Hungarization prior to 1918 yet it was fiercely resisted, so there was no Hungarian cultural impact left on Croatia during the 700 years of Hungarian administration

"And it would have worked out, if it wasn't for you sneeky Croatians!"

On a serious note: I thought Croatia was more or less self-ruling when it was part of the Hungarian Kingdom. :hmm:
The same way Austro-Hungary was contructed, you had the Kaiser who was the ruler of Austria and also the king of Hungary and while the external policy was common, the 2 had separate parliaments who took care of the rest.

In the sense that you had your "Horvát Bán", who took care of all the internal affairs.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby md0 » 2015-09-19, 12:32

http://kollectnews.org/2015/09/19/έφηβο ... ράτης-κου/

Can you believe this teenage jihadist*? He brought his dog to Europe, complete with animal passport and health certificate. Doesn't he know it's haram to have dogs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09 ... 32376.html

At least this one brought his kitten. That fits my preconceived notions a bit better.

* Jihadist is the European English term for "Arab", from what I gather from the news.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-19, 13:46

:lol:

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-09-20, 10:55

A voice that's been missing from the debate:
https://youtu.be/d8n-eo5fDYU

---

President of the EC, and former Polish PM, Donald Tusk decided that the issue of "redistribution of refugees" will be solved on the Interior Ministers' summit, which means that Poland cannot veto it. And the Visegrád group will be outvoted. No wonder he's called a traitor.

Image
(German accent) Here, traditional Polish hospitality

---

Polish opposition (soon to be ruling) party, social conservative and softly eurosceptic PiS, recently appeared very strongly anti-immigration on the immigration debate (and immediately applauded by the public.) The thing is that now their party speaker said something like this:
  1. We think Poles should be able to decide and have a say on the issue. Their opinion is most important.
  2. We recognize that Polish citizens are strongly anti-immigration.
  3. That said, we will accept the EU-imposed immigrant quotas, because we don't want to leave the EU.
So they basically say that a deal made by several bureaucrats from Brussels behind our backs is more important that the voices of millions of Polish citizens.

---

https://youtu.be/KCt_KpZWEMQ
Failed propaganda in "Polish" media. He's talking about seeing mostly "ill elderly people" and "poor children." This TV station has been long since feeding Poles with pro-EU and social liberal propaganda.

---

Furthermore, I consider that the EU must be destroyed.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-20, 22:51

Do y'all really think that such an exclusionary immigration policy is sustainable in the long run? AFAIK, whenever a government attempts a policy like that on immigration, it eventually starts to break down. If people really want to come in, surely sooner or later they're bound to do it anyway no matter how many or what kind of obstacles you try to throw in their way. So how is this not simply delaying the inevitable, and what's the point of doing that?

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Yasna » 2015-09-21, 0:51

vijayjohn wrote:Do y'all really think that such an exclusionary immigration policy is sustainable in the long run? AFAIK, whenever a government attempts a policy like that on immigration, it eventually starts to break down. If people really want to come in, surely sooner or later they're bound to do it anyway no matter how many or what kind of obstacles you try to throw in their way. So how is this not simply delaying the inevitable, and what's the point of doing that?

Of course you can restrict immigration if you try hard enough. Japan has been successfully restricting immigration for its entire history as a unified country. It's more tricky if you have land borders, but it's still possible.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-21, 4:19

Yasna wrote:Of course you can restrict immigration if you try hard enough. Japan has been successfully restricting immigration for its entire history as a unified country. It's more tricky if you have land borders, but it's still possible.

Well, at one time, the Japanese allowed no foreigners in except the Dutch, and now Japan has Chinese, South Koreans, Chongryon(!), Indians, Filipinos, Colombians, Americans, English people...I think it's fair to say the immigration restrictions have begun to break down over the centuries.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2015-09-21, 6:06

Yasna wrote:Of course you can restrict immigration if you try hard enough. [...] It's more tricky if you have land borders, but it's still possible.

Yes, possible if you try hard, like North-Korea-hard i.e making your country so fucked up and shitty that no one ever wants to come, save for a few nutjobs.

Of course, which is something I recommend Poland, Hungary et al. do. They were like that once or twice, what could hurt if they become like that again? Or maybe they are already like that and we just don't know.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-21, 7:28

- What do you call when a country joins the EU?
- ???
- EUthanasia.

vijayjohn wrote:Do y'all really think that such an exclusionary immigration policy is sustainable in the long run?

Currently we did deviate the immigration road towards Croatia.
So maybe not in the long run, but we are making some steps.

And what the EU is thinking about, having immigration quotas is just stupid, nobody signed up for this.

A country has to be able to accept who it wants. Our borders = our rules. Considering the consequences of course.

Also, you're forgetting the legal immigants, they're enough to fill the gap.
Plus, you're talking like we don't want anyone. We do, but with a little filtering.
Not every country wants to go fully "multikulti".

Патрислав Андреевич wrote:Furthermore, I consider that the EU must be destroyed.

Well, maybe not destroyed, but if it were to remain solely an economic union, that would be fantastic.

PS: I like your new profile pic. :wink:
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Патрислав Андреевич

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-09-21, 16:22

vijayjohn wrote:Do y'all really think that such an exclusionary immigration policy is sustainable in the long run? AFAIK, whenever a government attempts a policy like that on immigration, it eventually starts to break down. If people really want to come in, surely sooner or later they're bound to do it anyway no matter how many or what kind of obstacles you try to throw in their way. So how is this not simply delaying the inevitable, and what's the point of doing that?

Even if it is... Death is inevitable, but it doesn't mean we should all commit suicide. If there's a chance to win, we should put up a fight, not surrender to everything.

But still, it's an exclusionary illegal immigration policy. And that should be strict and consistent to have any effect. Even talking about how to "host our guests" is a sign of weakness, welcoming more to come and disregard country borders and its laws (because they'll get everything they want anyway since they're entitled to it!)

Immigration in itself is great when it's legal and controlled. If a state doesn't have the right to filter and reject certain people, then it's not sovereign, especially if it's forced to take them... People said NO, and it should mean NO.

(I recognise that we won't agree, though. :lol: )

Levike wrote:- What do you call when a country joins the EU?
- ???
- EUthanasia

:lol:

Патрислав Андреевич wrote:Furthermore, I consider that the EU must be destroyed.

Well, maybe not destroyed, but if it were to remain solely an economic union, that would be fantastic.

Too late, it hasn't been a solely economic union for a long time. It was supposed to be Europe od Nations, but that ideal has been long since abandoned. Now it's the Fourth Reich. I hope I'll see a day when the Visegrád Group countries jointly leave the Union and work together the proper way - being sovereign, with a proper economic union, proper free movement of people, and no laws above national laws, no stupid supranational parliaments, commisions, constitutions, and no tons of useless bureaucracy. I'd be so happy. :ohwell:

PS: I like your new profile pic. :wink:

Thanks. :)

---

Furthermore, I consider that the EU must be destroyed.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-21, 16:28

Патрислав Андреевич wrote:Death is inevitable, but it doesn't mean we should all commit suicide.

No, but if you're about to die, then there's no point in trying to keep you alive, either.
If there's a chance to win

Which I'm arguing there isn't
But still, it's an exclusionary illegal immigration policy.

So? Those don't work either.
Furthermore, I consider that the EU must be destroyed.

We got it the first time.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-21, 16:36

vijayjohn wrote:No, but if you're about to die, then there's no point in trying to keep you alive, either.

Well, that's very pessimistic. Some people do cling on to every moment left.

In any case, we're not close to death, the fence has solved the problem to a degree.

Vijay, are you saying that we should allow everyone in? No matter what?
Last edited by Levike on 2015-09-21, 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-21, 16:42

Levike wrote:Vijay, are you saying that we should allow everyone in? No matter what?

I'm saying I don't see the point of making a big deal out of people immigrating when it's inevitable in the long run anyway.

FWICT so far, this particular situation has all the dynamics of a refugee crisis regardless of whether you believe these people are actually refugees or not. This shit happens; it's not like you're the only ones who have ever been in this position throughout history. No, it's not fun, but there's not all that much you can do about it either.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-21, 16:45

vijayjohn wrote:But there's not all that much you can do about it either.

There is. We built a fence and we closed the border.

And now the majority of them had to take another route to get to another country.
Therefore we don't have to register them, so less problems for us.

That's why Croatia is in a larger mess now.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-21, 16:48

Levike wrote:There is. We built a fence and we closed the border.

And now the majority of them had to take another route to get to another country.
Therefore we don't have to register them, so less peoblems for us.

But that's not the end of the story. You don't know what's going to happen now; you just know that most of them can't be registered in Hungary right now. If they still want to get into Hungary, then you still have to deal with it.

Plus I never said there's nothing you can do about it. I said there isn't all that much.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-21, 16:53

vijayjohn wrote:But that's not the end of the story. You don't know what's going to happen now; you just know that most of them can't be registered in Hungary right now. If they still want to get into Hungary, then you still have to deal with it.

And most importantly, they can't get into Hungary that easily now.

I think we're doing well at discouraging them.
Till now it has been slowly getting better, I don't see any reason to think that it's going to get worse.

#WinterIsComing :twisted:

And I trust the current government, Orbán's not going to break that easily.
I disagree with a lot of his policies, but when it comes to immigration, he's the guy.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Yasna » 2015-09-21, 17:33

vijayjohn wrote:Well, at one time, the Japanese allowed no foreigners in except the Dutch, and now Japan has Chinese, South Koreans, Chongryon(!), Indians, Filipinos, Colombians, Americans, English people...I think it's fair to say the immigration restrictions have begun to break down over the centuries.

Only 1.5% of Japan's population are foreigners. Japan is one of the wealthiest countries in the history of the world, so you can imagine that a far, far higher percentage would be foreigners if they did not restrict immigration so tightly. Japan has chosen very carefully who it lets in the country. The Koreans were brought in for labor, Filipinos to care for the elderly, others to teach their native languages (especially native speakers of English.) There is no break down in the system.

Tenebrarum wrote:Yes, possible if you try hard, like North-Korea-hard i.e making your country so fucked up and shitty that no one ever wants to come, save for a few nutjobs.

Orrrr, you just create some sensible border defenses and eliminate false incentives for coming. But a lot depends on how long the border is, and how passable the terrain is. For example, I think the plans for the Great Wall to Stop Mexicans is ridiculous because of the cost and how it would artificially separate such an enormous amount of land and people. The money would be much better spent on trying to make Mexico a more desirable place to live IMO.

Basically, a country is more likely to be successful if it works with geography, not against it.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-21, 18:17

Yasna wrote:Japan has chosen very carefully who it lets in the country.

So? It still has had to let more foreigners in over time.
The Koreans were brought in for labor, Filipinos to care for the elderly, others to teach their native languages (especially native speakers of English.) There is no break down in the system.

So what's the point of effectively housing North Korea's propaganda machine then?

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-21, 18:21

Vijay, you don't seem to want to understand the point.

People can come in, more of them over time, but only if we choose to let them in.

Japan chose to let them in, it didn't open its borders and go "We welcome everyone to stay!".
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-21, 18:24

Levike wrote:Vijay, you don't seem to want to understand the point.

I don't understand yours, and you don't understand mine. I think that's fair.

I would love to be able to understand your perspective on this issue, but it makes zero sense to me.
People can come in, more of them over time, but only if we choose to let them in.

Except they're going to come in anyway if they really want to.


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