European refugee crisis [split]

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Levike
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-16, 19:11

The situation escalated quite dramatically. :shock:

The refugees tried to force their entry into Hungary, a couple of them even throwing rocks at the authorities.
20 policemen were injured as a result.

Video: http://www.gandul.info/embed/14714802
Last edited by Levike on 2015-09-16, 19:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-09-16, 19:21

Saim wrote:

Do you actually want refugees to apply for asylum in countries like Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia (and Serbia)?

Irrelevant. A refugee flees for refuge and safety. A refugee doesn't care what country he's in, as long as it's safe.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Saim » 2015-09-16, 19:28

Do you think there's much of a chance of Serbia for example seriously considering their asylum applications? Especially if there's several tens or hundreds of thousands of them? Don't you think these refugees would be right to think countries like Serbia would be liable to send them back, thus putting them in danger?

It's not irrellevant. You and people like you don't want these refugees to be integrated in these countries, so you shouldn't complain when they don't try. The way I see it, they're doing you a favour. Or maybe they somehow intuit that you folks just aren't particularly welcoming? Who knows.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Yasna » 2015-09-16, 21:22

The Stunning Hypocrisy of Mitteleuropa

"The countries of Central Europe have a long history of relying on the kindness of others during their darkest hours. So why are they so heartless when it comes to today’s refugees?"
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-09-16, 22:01

Levike wrote:The situation escalated quite dramatically. :shock:

The refugees tried to force their entry into Hungary, a couple of them even throwing rocks at the authorities.
20 policemen were injured as a result.

Video: http://www.gandul.info/embed/14714802

Hungarian fascists attacking defenseless refugees - mostly women with children - who tried to peacefully cross the border. Another shameful act of Orbán! :roll:

But seriousky, he's one of a few leaders/politicians in Europe whom I respect...

Yasna wrote:The Stunning Hypocrisy of Mitteleuropa

"The countries of Central Europe have a long history of relying on the kindness of others during their darkest hours. So why are they so heartless when it comes to today’s refugees?"

Stunning propaganda. Too emotional to be taken seriously.

We have a much longer history of being betrayed by the West, which they conveniently don't remember. "Heartless" - nothing more than playing on emotions. "Mitteleuropa" - suggesting we're a part of the 4th Reich. Which isn't far from truth, but we still have a say, at least theoretically, and we use that right. THAT's why it's a problem.

But how can we seriously accept something voted behind our backs and imposed on us, with threats of using force voiced by the most prominent German politicians?

The invasion of Europe that is taking place at the moment is not our war. It's the U.S. that treated Syria as their playground and made a mess. It's Germany that welcomed "refugees" and offered them benefits. Not our fucking problem. I don't want those people to be kept in German concentration camps on Polish territory, again.

The word most often used by the pro-EU politicians on today's extraordinary debate in Polish parliament was "solidarity." Yes, we should be solidary. But with our REAL allies: Hungary ( :hug: ), the Visegrád Group... NOT our German overlords.

Ceterum autem censeo EU esse delendam.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-17, 2:42

Just a question out of curiosity, if you don't mind:
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:We have a much longer history of being betrayed by the West, which they conveniently don't remember.

What do you mean? In what ways have you been betrayed by the West?

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby voron » 2015-09-17, 3:36

I don't think that many refugees will want to stay in Serbia, unless they are forced to.

Turkey is treating Syrians the best possible way. The card that they receive at the border control gives them residence permit and work permit. They enjoy free health care and other benefits which other immigrants don't. Yet they prefer to by-pass Turkey and flee further away to better doing countries.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-17, 5:48

voron wrote:I don't think that many refugees will want to stay in Serbia, unless they are forced to.

Turkey is treating Syrians the best possible way. The card that they receive at the border control gives them residence permit and work permit. They enjoy free health care and other benefits which other immigrants don't. Yet they prefer to by-pass Turkey and flee further away to better doing countries.

That's cool.

Are they really allowed to work?
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-09-17, 6:13

Saim wrote:Do you think there's much of a chance of Serbia for example seriously considering their asylum applications? Especially if there's several tens or hundreds of thousands of them? Don't you think these refugees would be right to think countries like Serbia would be liable to send them back, thus putting them in danger?

First of all, you're the one talking about the Serbia. The reporter asked about ''Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary''. Those countries would seriously consider their asylum applications. And so would Serbia, by the way.

Saim wrote:It's not irrellevant. You and people like you don't want these refugees to be integrated in these countries, so you shouldn't complain when they don't try. The way I see it, they're doing you a favour. Or maybe they somehow intuit that you folks just aren't particularly welcoming? Who knows.

Sophistry.

A refugee seeks refuge and safety. Even Serbia has refugee camps that are safe, where we could potentially house refugees, plus we have experience with accepting huge numbers of refugees. (You might remember that Serbia has already accepted more than half a million refugees during the 1990s) Croatia, Hungary and Slovenia are also quite capable of providing a safe haven for the refugees.

We aren't particularly welcoming. Get off your high horse, please. We aren't particularly rich. And that's why the refugees don't want to come to us. Asylum-shopping at its best.

voron wrote:I don't think that many refugees will want to stay in Serbia, unless they are forced to.

Not that many Serbs would want to stay in Serbia either.
voron wrote:Turkey is treating Syrians the best possible way. The card that they receive at the border control gives them residence permit and work permit. They enjoy free health care and other benefits which other immigrants don't. Yet they prefer to by-pass Turkey and flee further away to better doing countries.

Exactly. Syrians that enter Turkey are refugees, those that leave it for Europe are thus simply migrants. They're not fleeing war, they're fleeing poverty.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Saim » 2015-09-17, 6:49

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Get off your high horse, please.


I'm not going to bother with the rest because I don't think this is going anywhere.

It's not a high horse because I don't see "my country" as better than Serbia. Firstly I would consider Serbia to be "my country" as well, but even if you don't accept that and will only consider me Australian, I'll readily admit that Australia has been worse to refugees than most European countries. They let them drown and they stick them in concentration camps in other countries where they're abused and have little access to basic facilities...

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-17, 8:46

The Hungarian authorities had to use tear gas and water cannons.

Hungaro-Serbian border incidents: http://www.gandul.info/embed/14716852

The video is from the Romanian news website Gândul.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby TeneReef » 2015-09-17, 18:53

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-09-17, 19:46

Saim wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Get off your high horse, please.


I'm not going to bother with the rest because I don't think this is going anywhere.

Of course it's not. You don't want to accept basic definitions such as 'refugee is a person seeking refuge and safety from war'.

You can't be a refugee and say ''I don't like it here, I want to go someplace else.'' Which is exactly what they are doing.

I don't like it in Turkey, I want to Europe.
I don't like it in Slovenia, I want to Sweden.
I don't like it here in Sweden, we're in the middle of nowhere, there's no civilization here, I want to a city center.

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/dal ... hetslandet

You know what, I've actually met a lot of refugees in my life. I met a woman who fled the Operation Storm and found herself on the 'other' side of the border with the clothes that were already on her and some money in her pocket. She fled the war. She fled the mortar shelling. She fled the advancing enemy military that might rape, kill or injure her. She was grateful to be alive and safe. When she managed to get closer to an urban center she roamed the dumpsters for clothes and begged for food. If she were to be transferred to an asylum-center in Sweden, I can imagine she'd be kissing the feet of every Swede there. Imagine getting food, clothes and a warm bed!

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-17, 20:01

Ludwig Whitby wrote:You can't be a refugee and say ''I don't like it here, I want to go someplace else.'' Which is exactly what they are doing.

Then how do you explain the fact that lots of refugees of all kinds of wars and conflicts escape one country for another, then go from there to yet another?
If she were to be transferred to an asylum-center in Sweden, I can imagine she'd be kissing the feet of every Swede there.

I doubt she would.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-17, 20:06

vijayjohn wrote:Then how do you explain the fact that lots of refugees of all kinds of wars and conflicts escape one country for another, then go from there to yet another?

They are just being picky, because they feel entitled to.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-09-17, 20:17

vijayjohn wrote:Just a question out of curiosity, if you don't mind:
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:We have a much longer history of being betrayed by the West, which they conveniently don't remember.

What do you mean? In what ways have you been betrayed by the West?

'39 and '45, for example.

Levike wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Then how do you explain the fact that lots of refugees of all kinds of wars and conflicts escape one country for another, then go from there to yet another?

They are just being picky, because they feel entitled to.

And the truth is:
https://youtu.be/QNaEEj7gCqM

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-17, 20:23

Патрислав Андреевич wrote:
Levike wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Then how do you explain the fact that lots of refugees of all kinds of wars and conflicts escape one country for another, then go from there to yet another?

They are just being picky, because they feel entitled to.

And the truth is:
https://youtu.be/QNaEEj7gCqM

*Intensity intensifies*
Image
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-09-17, 20:23

vijayjohn wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:You can't be a refugee and say ''I don't like it here, I want to go someplace else.'' Which is exactly what they are doing.

Then how do you explain the fact that lots of refugees of all kinds of wars and conflicts escape one country for another, then go from there to yet another?

They do, yes. But in that case, the 'third country' has every right to reject to let you in if you do not provide proper documentation or meet the proper requirements. For example, you flee the war in your country to a neighbouring country. You find a Canadian embassy in the neighbouring country and apply for asylum. They grant it and you move to Canada. Or they don't grant it and you stay put.

vijayjohn wrote:
If she were to be transferred to an asylum-center in Sweden, I can imagine she'd be kissing the feet of every Swede there.

I doubt she would.

I meant that she would be extremely grateful, not that she would literally take their shoes off and kiss their feet.

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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-09-18, 7:57

Denmark announced that it won't accept any immigration quotas.

And Croatia closed more than half of its checkpoints with Serbia.
By building the Serbo-Hungarian fence, we basically gave the burden onto the next country.

PS: The Romanian prime-minister who called us "rasist, xenofobic and barbaric", the one because of whom this discussion started, has been asked to resign by the president. :yep: Not because of his early statements though, but it's still a win situation.
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Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby TeneReef » 2015-09-18, 10:00

Levike wrote:
PS: The Romanian prime-minister who called us "rasist, xenofobic and barbaric", .


this isn't new
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1ro ... a-Slavonia
Croatia was subjected to heavy Hungarization prior to 1918
yet it was fiercely resisted, so there was no Hungarian cultural impact left
on Croatia during the 700 years of
Hungarian administration
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