European refugee crisis [split]

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-09-24, 6:00

linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Immigrants tend to settle in cities.

Everyone tends to settle in cities. Urbanisation has just passed the halfway mark worldwide and is only projected to rise.
Worldwide numbers are one thing, Europe is another.
linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:There is noticeable segregation, with some parts of the city having almost no immigrants, while others having a large number of them.

This varies by city. Moreover, places don't remain segregated just because they started out that way. The neighbourhood just south of where I live is called "Andersonville" because it was historically a concentration point of Swedish settlement. Nowadays more Somalis live there than Swedes.

Not only have immigrants been moving out to the suburbs for as long as these have existed, they're increasingly skipping urban neighbourhoods altogether and settling there directly. Again, suburbanisation of immigrant populations in the USA has passed the 50% mark and continues to rise:
Overall, three quarters (76 percent) of the growth in the foreign-born population between 2000 and 2013 in the largest metro areas occurred in the suburbs. In 53 metro areas, the suburbs accounted for more than half of immigrant growth, including nine metros in which all of the growth occurred in the suburbs: Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Grand Rapids, Jackson, Los Angeles, Ogden, Rochester, and Salt Lake City.

USA is not Europe.
linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Immigrants have lower levels of employment.

Not always the case. In fact, in several EU countries, it's precisely the opposite. (See Figure 2. Compared to other EU countries, Sweden is actually the outlier in regards to the discrepancy between native-born and foreign-born employment rates. So, again, a terrible data point to make projections from.)

I don't have the time to go through each and every country, because not all immigrants are the same. What I see is that Germany, France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany have similar levels of discrepancy. Spain, Portugal and Slovenia have low levels since most of the immigrants either know the language or can learn it within months, since they come from either South America or ex-Yugoslavia respectively.

I don't know much about the other countries and the reasons behind these numbers, and neither do you. What I do see is that countries with conservative immigration policy such as Czechia, Slovakia, Poland and Hungary and doing incredibly better than countries with open immigration policy such as Germany, France and the Netherlands,



linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:I think it's safe to assume that what is happening today in the major cities of Sweden will happen in other major cities of Europe, if the immigration is not kept on a low level.

If you think that, then I think you need to go back to school. See if you can find a class on interpreting statistical data, and maybe study some sociology while you're at it.

Lol. Do you learn how to manipulate statistics and use them to support your ideology in school?

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17639
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-24, 6:54

Varislintu wrote:
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
Патрислав Андреевич wrote:Fucking traitors should be hanged for this.

Much manly, so bravery!

It's not, it's normal. Highest punishment for traitors.


Oh you think hanging is normal? Personally I think that's so last Tuesday. I think crucifying traitors is the bee's knees nowadays, like they do in Saudi Arabia. Now that is patriotic and normal! :yep:

Why so much work? UniLang smilies already offer you a range of methods for punishment!
1. :microwave:
2. :blow:
3. :laser:
4. :bastard: <- See? This one is the easiest because they die even before you start hitting them!

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Varislintu » 2015-09-24, 17:48

@Vijay: Nawh, I still think crucifixion and lashing is the new normal.

More seriously, though, it's so frustrating that many of the people who make their way several countries into Europe have ended up paying easily 15 000 euros to "local entrepreneurs" to cross a sea or a border. I wonder if Finland shouldn't have done this: Declare up front ages ago that we will take 20 000 refugees directly from camps on the condition that they buy a regular fare plane ticket (we could have given them -5% coupons to use Finnair :wink: ) and can prove that they have 15 000 euros spending money on a bank account or as cash for their immediate living costs here. Then we organise as cheap normal housing for them here as possible (so rent costs would be as low as possible, for example flat-mate flats like students live in), and they get access to emergency health care, but they don't get any other monetary support until they have an official job and thus pay taxes, and they only get to stay, say 5 years, until their case is reviewed again.

Those people could have spent that money here, for living, boosting our economy, instead of giving it away to some traffickers.

Down southward that money would go even a longer way. 15 000 euros in Finland is probably like 30 000 euros in Estonia, 45 000 euros in Poland, 60 000 euros in Hungary. (I mean in purchasing power. Many Hungarians live (?) on 200 euros a month. 15 000 is a fortune there.)
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-09-24, 20:36

Varislintu wrote:Oh you think hanging is normal? Personally I think that's so last Tuesday. I think crucifying traitors is the bee's knees nowadays, like they do in Saudi Arabia. Now that is patriotic and normal! :yep:

Oh, but it doesn't have to be hanging, there are better and more modern methods of execution. ;) For obvious reasons crucifixion is not one of them in the Christian/European civilisation. :nope: And it's just barbaric.

Varislintu wrote:More seriously, though, it's so frustrating that many of the people who make their way several countries into Europe have ended up paying easily 15 000 euros to "local entrepreneurs" to cross a sea or a border. I wonder if Finland shouldn't have done this: Declare up front ages ago that we will take 20 000 refugees directly from camps on the condition that they buy a regular fare plane ticket (we could have given them -5% coupons to use Finnair :wink: ) and can prove that they have 15 000 euros spending money on a bank account or as cash for their immediate living costs here. Then we organise as cheap normal housing for them here as possible (so rent costs would be as low as possible, for example flat-mate flats like students live in), and they get access to emergency health care, but they don't get any other monetary support until they have an official job and thus pay taxes, and they only get to stay, say 5 years, until their case is reviewed again.

Those people could have spent that money here, for living, boosting our economy, instead of giving it away to some traffickers.

Now this is a much better idea than what's being done right now (that is, closing our "guests" in concentration camps on German orders.) On these terms we could even take those 20 thousand people. All while private charities and organisations could help those who wouldn't have enough money.

Unfortunately it's a bit too late.

Zireael
Posts: 228
Joined: 2012-02-27, 12:29
Gender: female
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Zireael » 2015-09-25, 18:17

No one is sticking the refugees into concentration camps here. The building in Oświęcim is outside the KL itself and has been rebuilt twice from the ground up since the war.
Native: [flag=]pl[/flag] Very advanced/near native: [flag=]en-US[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]es[/flag]
Beginner [flag=]de[/flag], [flag=]sgn[/flag], [flag=]tpi[/flag], [flag=]en_old[/flag], [flag=]ar[/flag]
Wanderlusting: [flag=]ja[/flag], [flag=]ru[/flag]
Artificial languages: [flag=]art-qya[/flag], [flag=]art-sjn[/flag],
My interest has been drawn by: [flag=]fa[/flag], [flag=]zh[/flag],

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3047
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby TeneReef » 2015-09-26, 18:31

"You can tell the world I hate Finland. It's too cold, there's no tea, no restaurants, no bars, nobody on the streets, only cars," 22-year-old Muhammed told AFP in Tornio, as the mercury struggled to inch above 10 degrees Celsius (50 Fahrenheit) on a recent blustery grey day.


:lol:

http://news.yahoo.com/finlands-no-good- ... 42061.html

'Finland's no good': Disappointed migrants turn back
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6127
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-10-18, 21:25

http://m.9gag.com/gag/aVXB1bK

I'm enjoying the comment section. 8-)

On a more serious note:

Hungary partially closed its border with Croatia therefore leaving the immigrants no option, but to go to Slovenia. And Slovenia decided not to allow trains to pass.

I think these measures will apply for one or two days.

In any case it's more delicate now since both Croatia and Slovenia are also EU countries.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-19, 12:41

TeneReef wrote:
"You can tell the world I hate Finland. It's too cold, there's no tea, no restaurants, no bars, nobody on the streets, only cars," 22-year-old Muhammed told AFP in Tornio, as the mercury struggled to inch above 10 degrees Celsius (50 Fahrenheit) on a recent blustery grey day.


:lol:

http://news.yahoo.com/finlands-no-good- ... 42061.html

'Finland's no good': Disappointed migrants turn back


I can understand them -- many of the asylum-seekers seem to have the most generously gilded preconceptions about Europe, which I find astonishing. Like they haven't seen our popular media, or read history, or travelled. Which I guess, well, they haven't, particularly. I'm somehow so used to everybody thinking Europe and thinking colonialism and hypochrisy, and as a Finn I'm of course used to our country being the butt of all kinds of climate, culture and cuisine jokes.

Things is, there are apparently stories going around (among Middle-Easterners) especially about Finland, that for example we are especially good for Irakians to come here. I have no idea how they've gotten going, it's a bit strange. This is a pretty xenophobic country.

But I think that quote in the headline is directed to fellow Middle-Easterners who are still in the Middle-East: "The stories you're being told have been greatly exaggerated."
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17639
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-10-19, 15:31

Yeah, I'm not terribly surprised if they think Europe (or the US, for that matter) is a lot better than it really is. In fact, it was always frustrating for me how highly my relatives seemed to think of this country regardless of whether they were born here or not and despite all having lived here longer than me. Certain things about this country bothered me so much, but no one seemed to get it. You might even be surprised to see how many Indians are nostalgic for the colonial period. This always shocks my dad and makes him feel as if they have no idea what actually happened.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20488
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby linguoboy » 2015-10-19, 16:01

You see the same dynamic in this country with Central Americans. According to surveys, the further they live from the border, the more rosy their pictures of life in the States. That's why most of the recent immigrants have been from rural areas in far southern Mexico and neighbouring countries, leading to our own refugee crisis last year.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-19, 18:12

Yeah.

And further concerning the Irakians that make it all the way to here, for example -- they've left behind family, they've often spent their entire family's remaining wealth to get here (as in thousands or tens of thousands of euros), they've put their entire future on this one card -- and then they come here and well, this isn't paradise. Not for them. It's also expensive as heck -- a kind of basic fact that seems obvious but I guess they just don't realise how expensive it really is. So they spend a lot to get here broke, and what little they have left is like nothing because of the price level here.

That's why I think we should have taken some of them outside of the humanitarian pipelines (letting the humanitarian system of refugee quotas be mainly for the people without remaining wealth). That money should have gone to their actual life-building and not to smugglers and traffickers.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6127
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-10-22, 9:14

Immigrants burnt down 12 tents set up in Slovenia at the Croatian border.

Their reasons were "improper conditions and lack of respect for refugees".
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
Ashucky
Global Moderator
Posts: 1697
Joined: 2010-11-09, 18:35
Real Name: Andrej
Gender: male
Location: Ljubljana
Country: SI Slovenia (Slovenija)
Contact:

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Ashucky » 2015-10-22, 10:45

Levike wrote:Immigrants burnt down 12 tents set up in Slovenia at the Croatian border.

Their reasons were "improper conditions and lack of respect for refugees".

Considering that 12,600 immigrants entered Slovenia just on Wednesday (we have cities smaller than that), and Austria closing parts of its border and accepting only a limited number of immigrants, it was bound to happen at some point, and it might happen again, too.
Slovenščina (sl)English (en)Italiano (it)漢語 (zh)Español (es)Suomi (fi)Svenska (sv)日本語 (ja)فارسی (fa)Nešili (hit)
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
Največji sovražnik znanja ni nevednost, marveč iluzija znanja.

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Johanna » 2015-10-22, 14:38

Levike wrote:Immigrants burnt down 12 tents set up in Slovenia at the Croatian border.

Their reasons were "improper conditions and lack of respect for refugees".

And on the opposite side of the scale, here in Sweden right-wing extremists have burnt down several buildings that were to be homes for asylum seekers. Not sure how many, but definitely more than five, maybe even more than ten, and it's happened all over the country.

Also, our no-we're-not-racist-at-all-and-very-much-democratic (but in reality neo-fascist) party has declared that if immigration isn't restricted further, they will use extra-parliamentary methods, which doesn't bode well.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-23, 11:28

Johanna wrote:
Levike wrote:Immigrants burnt down 12 tents set up in Slovenia at the Croatian border.

Their reasons were "improper conditions and lack of respect for refugees".

And on the opposite side of the scale, here in Sweden right-wing extremists have burnt down several buildings that were to be homes for asylum seekers. Not sure how many, but definitely more than five, maybe even more than ten, and it's happened all over the country.


Also in Finland, and in my understanding in Estonia (they were so very upset they would have to take 200 EU quota refugees :roll: ).
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Johanna » 2015-10-23, 13:35

Yesterday Sweden made the headlines all over Europe, maybe even the world, when a 21-year-old man went to a school and stabbed two students, a student assistant and a teacher, the assistant and one of the students died and the perpetrator was shot to death by the police. From the looks of it he was fed up with the number of immigrants Sweden has received lately and targeted kids with dark skin specifically, and if it weren't for that student assistant the number of victims may have been far greater.

It's really scary that he targeted children that way, last time anything similar happened was in Norway in 2011, albeit on a much larger scale, and it was motivated by the same thing.

It also happened in a town only 60 km from where I live, one that I've been to numerous times, so I feel a bit more shaken up than if it had been further away.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3047
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby TeneReef » 2015-11-01, 17:49

Refugees refuse to get off the bus in Dalarna:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/o ... en-removed

They are too picky for refugees. What did they expect? 5 star hotels in Lund or Uppsala? :hmm:
I would love to live in rural Dalarna (if it was right for Sophia Helqvist it should be great for anyone).
:yep:
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17639
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-11-01, 18:15

TeneReef wrote:They are too picky for refugees.

Then try being one yourself.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7042
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby md0 » 2015-11-01, 18:54

A lot of people are dying in the sea between Greece and Turkey this last three days. Perhaps the only glimmer of hope is that Churches finally opened their temples to house refugees. A lot of them resisted initially.

But there was a pathetic display yesterday. A lot of groups and people marched towards the land border between Greece and Turkey protest against its fortification (aka "the Evros fence"). The wall stops people from crossing into Europe in relative safety, forcing them to take the sea routes.

SYRIZA, the Greek government that is, tried to claim that they are part of this, inviting people to join the march against the fortified border. And then SYRIZA's police force teargassed anyone who tried to approach the border area.
What a pathetic lot they are. SYRIZA's leader and Greece's priminister even declared the following in the parliament a few days ago, talking about fences being raised in other EU countries:
"The European vision was born when the Berlin Wall fell. This vision died today with the new walls and barbed wired thare are raised".

Fucking tear down your own fucking wall you pathetic waste of oxygen. You are the priminister of the first EU country to fortify their land borders specifically to force refugees to take the more deadly sea routes. Yeah you didn't built the fence, the previous government did. You have been PM for a year, and you try to appear like you care about the refugees, you try to co-opt the movement against the Wall, but you can't even control your fucking cops.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6127
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: European refugee crisis [split]

Postby Levike » 2015-11-01, 19:58

vijayjohn wrote:
TeneReef wrote:They are too picky for refugees.

Then try being one yourself.

Beggars can't be choosers.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests