Discrimination

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16810
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-07, 5:04

I don't think anyone's ever posted in this thread to complain about discrimination that they have personally experienced per se. Lauren once posted in another thread to do this, and then her post was moved here along with a bunch of posts that followed it (because it ended up being off-topic for the thread). The first time I posted in this thread, it was about discrimination that some members of my family have perpetrated, not experienced.

User avatar
Prowler
Posts: 1607
Joined: 2013-07-19, 5:09
Gender: male
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2016-11-10, 3:52

vijayjohn wrote:I don't think anyone's ever posted in this thread to complain about discrimination that they have personally experienced per se. Lauren once posted in another thread to do this, and then her post was moved here along with a bunch of posts that followed it (because it ended up being off-topic for the thread). The first time I posted in this thread, it was about discrimination that some members of my family have perpetrated, not experienced.

Yeah but I figured I'd share my experience. Although it probably didn't really surprise anybody.

Discrimination family members of mine have perpetuated asides from making negative remarks of certain groups of people? I can't really think of anything right now. They might have discriminated subtly against others without realising, as in avoiding talking to people of certain backgrounds, but I wasn't there to see it or didn't notice it so can't say for certain.

The only thing I remember, from the top of my head, was on a trip to Dublin, Ireland in 2005, I think? Me, my mother and my uncles were walking down a park in the city and saw an old gay couple(two gay men). After they walked away to the point of being a far enough distance from hearing us my aunt said to us "will you look at that? two queers(dois maricas)!" and my mom just said "well, they're bold considering this is Ireland we're talking about(very catholic country)."

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16810
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-12-18, 8:41

This is my attempt at a translation of an excerpt from Chapter 16 of the Malayalam novel Randidangazhi by Thakazhi Sivasankara Pillai, which is about slavery in Kerala. This particular excerpt talks about why it was so difficult for slaves to escape. All of the characters in this excerpt are slaves from the Paraiyar subcaste. (Masculine plural = Paraiyar; masculine singular = Paraiyan; feminine singular = Paraki). In Kerala, the only subcaste lower in status than this one is the Pulayar (masculine singular = Pulayan, feminine singular = Pulaki), who are also mentioned here. The English word 'pariah' comes from "Paraiyar." Koren is a Paraiyan, and Chiruda is his wife:
Chiruda insisted on not having a shed built, and not just in Pushpaveli. They shouldn't work anywhere in that land. They should leave that land. They should go somewhere.
"Let's go!" she would say sixty times like a frightened child. There was always something frightening her everywhere. Day and night, she was frightened.
Koren didn't really agree. That wasn't because of any particular affection towards that land or the people of Pushpaveli. He was a Paraiyan; a Paraiyan's job is to farm. He'd have to do that anywhere, so wouldn't it be best for him to stay in a land where he'd already gotten to know people? Besides, he'd already built a floor in place and raised it. How many months of effort that took! Koren didn't have the mind to abandon it. If he went to a new land, he'd have to build a surface there, too.
Chiruda was emphatic. "I can't stand it here!"
"Why not, hon?"
"I can't. It won't work. It's a disaster."
"Tell me why!"
"It just is!"
Only Maria knew what she was talking about, but she didn't say anything. The two women exchanged ideas by looking at each other.
Koren said to Maria, "What's she saying? She keeps either nagging me or having something on her mind."
Maria didn't reply. Chiruda said, "I'll tell you..."
She looked at Maria's face. Maria shut her eyes tight. She was worried that Chiruda would ruin everything by pouring out all her fears. Chiruda continued: "We won't get along well with the landlord at Pushpaveli. That landlord and his sons are bad. They're greedy; they're devils. If we live here this year, we'll all end up beating each other up. That's why I said we should go."
Maria was relieved. Chiruda had explained the matter clearly and wisely.
Patros, who had been listening to all of this, gave his opinion: "Don't you say that, Chiruda! I won't agree if you say that. You won't get a master this good either in this land or in the next one. They're beating the workers to death in some places, you know that?"
Chiruda repeated over and over again that they were devils.
Both of the men had left. Once the women were alone, Maria said to Chiruda, "Baby, what're you talking about? It's the same or worse wherever you go. The landlords at Cheruvaalyakkaar are staring at Parakis and Pulakis who are nothing but blood and water. You're safer here. Wanna hear a story?"
Maria started telling some stories she knew, stories about high-caste people destroying poor Parakis and Pulakis! And who might these high-caste people be? Chiruda had heard about some well-known families. The young men there...they were Nairs, Ezhavas, Christians, Muslims. Chiruda was getting worried. How and where could they protect themselves from the situations the Parakis and Pulakis who had to sleep in small huts with no lock and no door and go out to work had to go through? How could she be sure that only one man had laid eyes on her?
Maria continued, "When I was young, there wasn't a Paraki or a Pulaki who had touched anyone other than her husband. Now the girls at Cheruvaalyakkaar are making eyes at the master's children."
Chiruda said, "I'm scared. He'll come back."

User avatar
languagepotato
Posts: 438
Joined: 2013-01-22, 7:17
Gender: male
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: Discrimination

Postby languagepotato » 2017-03-11, 11:16

This is a recurring conversation i keep on having and it's really getting on my nerves

*random conversation*
Person A: Where are you from, btw?
me: I'm born and raised here in the netherlands, but i'm from moroccan heritage
*the part of the conversation not about where i'm from*
person A: so, how long have you been here?
me: told you, i'm born and raised here
*something else*
Person A: your accent is flawless, you sound like you're from amsterdam
me: I am
Person A: but you came here from morocco, right?
me: no, my parents did.
*random conversation*
Person A: So, how long have you been here in the netherlands
me: ...my...entire...life..
Person A: that explains the flawless accent

*a few days later*
Person A: you speak dutch very well
me: ...*facepalm*
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

User avatar
Babbsagg
Posts: 224
Joined: 2017-02-26, 8:54
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-03-11, 13:06

I guess it goes over many people's heads that someone can be of different descent but be a native of their country. I sometimes wonder if that's a remnant of the widespread sort of nationalism that equates nationality with ethnicity. Or, in worse terms, the thinking that nationality means being of some certain "blood". One nation, one ethnicity, one language, one culture.

As someone of local descent, I guess I was lucky that I've never been exposed to such treatment. I don't know how it feels, but I imagine it's bloody annoying.
Thank you for correcting mistakes!

User avatar
languagepotato
Posts: 438
Joined: 2013-01-22, 7:17
Gender: male
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: Discrimination

Postby languagepotato » 2017-03-11, 14:02

Babbsagg wrote:I guess it goes over many people's heads that someone can be of different descent but be a native of their country. I sometimes wonder if that's a remnant of the widespread sort of nationalism that equates nationality with ethnicity. Or, in worse terms, the thinking that nationality means being of some certain "blood". One nation, one ethnicity, one language, one culture.

As someone of local descent, I guess I was lucky that I've never been exposed to such treatment. I don't know how it feels, but I imagine it's bloody annoying.



yup, especially the one culture thing is annoying, no matter how hard i try to explain it to other people. they just can't grasp the concept of being raised bi-culturally.
it's either: "I'm dutch because i grew up here" or "I'm moroccan because of my heritage"
no matter how hard i try to explain that i identify with both cultures (with good reason), they still don't understand it.
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16810
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-11, 16:37

I've never had that problem in person, I guess because people around me are generally taught for years in school that America is a melting pot etc. etc. I did have one friend who I only knew through e-mail, though, and who used to have a lot of trouble remembering that I am just as American as she is.

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 4382
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Poznań
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Saim » 2017-03-11, 18:31

languagepotato wrote:This is a recurring conversation i keep on having and it's really getting on my nerves

*random conversation*
Person A: Where are you from, btw?
me: I'm born and raised here in the netherlands, but i'm from moroccan heritage
*the part of the conversation not about where i'm from*
person A: so, how long have you been here?
me: told you, i'm born and raised here
*something else*
Person A: your accent is flawless, you sound like you're from amsterdam
me: I am
Person A: but you came here from morocco, right?
me: no, my parents did.
*random conversation*
Person A: So, how long have you been here in the netherlands
me: ...my...entire...life..
Person A: that explains the flawless accent

*a few days later*
Person A: you speak dutch very well
me: ...*facepalm*


Got this shit all the time in Redneckistan, Queensland. Once I moved schools and for weeks random kids would ask me if I'm from India or Arabland or if I'm related to this disabled student who happened to be brown-ish. Anglos have such a wild sense of humour.

User avatar
Babbsagg
Posts: 224
Joined: 2017-02-26, 8:54
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-03-11, 19:30

languagepotato wrote:
Babbsagg wrote:I guess it goes over many people's heads that someone can be of different descent but be a native of their country. I sometimes wonder if that's a remnant of the widespread sort of nationalism that equates nationality with ethnicity. Or, in worse terms, the thinking that nationality means being of some certain "blood". One nation, one ethnicity, one language, one culture.

As someone of local descent, I guess I was lucky that I've never been exposed to such treatment. I don't know how it feels, but I imagine it's bloody annoying.



yup, especially the one culture thing is annoying, no matter how hard i try to explain it to other people. they just can't grasp the concept of being raised bi-culturally.
it's either: "I'm dutch because i grew up here" or "I'm moroccan because of my heritage"
no matter how hard i try to explain that i identify with both cultures (with good reason), they still don't understand it.


What really annoys me that people always make immigrants or immigrant-descent people responsible for what goes on (or doesn't) in the country of their origin. Like when a Turk complains that he feels discriminated because of his Muslim belief, it's a safe bet that many will angrily rebuke that they're worse and should first sort it out in "their own country".

As for explaining it, have you tried the, uhm how should I call it, "role reversal"? I often find it very helpful for understanding something to put myself in someone else's shoes. For example, I imagine that my parents moved to the USA and I was born there. I'd feel American, a full member of that society, but might still hold on to my heritage and some traditions, and those aren't mutually exclusive. I don't think any other German would see any problem with that.

The USA might not be the best example as American nationality is much harder to define on ethnicity, and immigration is a defining characteristic of American history (even if some people forget that). I've got a feeling that the old European nationalism that more often than not defined itself by language, culture, ethnicity etc. still lives on more or less subconsciously, even where it's officially abandoned.

But be that as it may, I think the point of being a part of a society without abandoning your heritage stays the same.
Thank you for correcting mistakes!

Hent
Posts: 1282
Joined: 2012-11-06, 16:15
Gender: male
Country: CZ Czech Republic (Česká republika)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Hent » 2017-03-23, 14:30

Hi. So I travelled to Dresden yesterday for a job interview and it was alright. Except for one thing. I was ID'd 4 f**king times. Twice on the train and twice at the train station? What the hell is that supposed to mean? I asked the cop if I looked like a terrorist and she said it's their job. Obviously it's their job, but it made me feel foreign. Do I stand out? Do I look like a terrorist, criminal or a psycho who would hurt others? I thought we were borderless in the Schengen area, but it seems I was wrong. Pretty undemocratic and hypocritical from what I can tell. My father used to tell me how they were ID'd during the commie times and that's exactly how it felt. Pure bullying.

Does it happen in other Western EU states? What about the USA and Canada and I don't mean customs or when you're a little bit too loud while wasted.

User avatar
Babbsagg
Posts: 224
Joined: 2017-02-26, 8:54
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-03-23, 15:18

To be fair, Sachsen has a reputation in Germany for being a stronghold of right-wing extremism, and Dresden the capital of the far right Pegida movement. Institutions are also under suspicion. Last year, police was in the field to protect a Pegida rally in Dresden, and the overseeing policeman wished them success over the loudspeaker--this has caught attention and caused disbelief across the country.

I don't know if you'd encounter less trouble in other parts of the country, but if I was a foreigner that's the last place in Germany where I'd go. In fact, there's been a decline even in domestic tourism after it's increasingly become the home of neo-nazism in public perception. It's also endangered as a business location because investors have become worried about what's going on there.
Thank you for correcting mistakes!

Hent
Posts: 1282
Joined: 2012-11-06, 16:15
Gender: male
Country: CZ Czech Republic (Česká republika)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Hent » 2017-03-23, 16:06

Okay. Makes sense. I'll keep that in mind, but still Sachsen is the closest Bundesland for me geographically as I come from Usti nad Labem. And for a language aficionado it's more interesting than my hometown. Just yesterday I heard spoken German, Czech , Russian, Ukrainian, Arabic, Turkish, Vietnamese , Chinese and so on. :)

It's just that I've been to Dresden before and I've never had my papers checked. When we drove to France we weren't stopped or searched anywhere. Not even in Switzerland and that's not an EU member. And as far as these patrols are concerned. I was in Prague last year and saw cops and soldiers with sub machine guns, but they didn't nag anyone.

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 9965
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Discrimination

Postby Car » 2017-03-23, 16:39

Switzerland is part of Schengen, though. Schengen also doesn't mean there are no controls, but (usually) not at the border, but they may happen in the countries instead. I wonder if it had anything to do with the terrorist attack in London or did that happen before?
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
Prowler
Posts: 1607
Joined: 2013-07-19, 5:09
Gender: male
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-03-23, 21:33

Sasabasa wrote:Hi. So I travelled to Dresden yesterday for a job interview and it was alright. Except for one thing. I was ID'd 4 f**king times. Twice on the train and twice at the train station? What the hell is that supposed to mean? I asked the cop if I looked like a terrorist and she said it's their job. Obviously it's their job, but it made me feel foreign. Do I stand out? Do I look like a terrorist, criminal or a psycho who would hurt others? I thought we were borderless in the Schengen area, but it seems I was wrong. Pretty undemocratic and hypocritical from what I can tell. My father used to tell me how they were ID'd during the commie times and that's exactly how it felt. Pure bullying.

Does it happen in other Western EU states? What about the USA and Canada and I don't mean customs or when you're a little bit too loud while wasted.

Why would they assume a Czech person might be a terrorist? Seems odd for them to ID you since I doubt Czechs are some alien species to Germans. And how cna they even tell you're a non-German just by looking at you? Or am I missing something here? :hmm:

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16810
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-23, 23:53

Sasabasa wrote:What about the USA and Canada and I don't mean customs or when you're a little bit too loud while wasted.

The only time I can imagine that happening in the US is if the cops pull you over e.g. for speeding even though this is illegal unless they have reasonable suspicion to believe you have carried out a crime. I don't think they'd be able to tell you weren't American just from looking at you.

Hent
Posts: 1282
Joined: 2012-11-06, 16:15
Gender: male
Country: CZ Czech Republic (Česká republika)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Hent » 2017-03-24, 9:16

Prowler: I don't know. Maybe the leather coat? A terrorist, drug dealer or a criminal on the run. Any assumption is degrading.

You're right about me not having those eastern slavic faces, but maybe the clothes gave me away. I could pass for a Georgian Chechen as far as I know. Not all terrorists have darker skin or long beards. It doesn't matter though.

Vijayjohn: Yes. I can imagine that from all the movies I've seen.

Cop: pull over, sir. Hands on the wheel where I can see ' em. :)

But maybe it's different, because there are so many types of people in the US. For example I had no idea Melanie Trump was from Slovenia.

Everyone: The thing is the terrorists can strike anywhere, anytime using various startegies. Nobody can prevent it.

Not being able to finish my espresso, because I look "suspicious" plainly sucks.

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6834
Joined: 2002-07-12, 22:44
Location: Lisboa
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Luís » 2017-03-24, 10:06

I traveled from Copenhagen to Stockholm by train a couple of years ago. Halfway through the Øresund bridge, some Swedish officers with dogs came in and asked for everyone's documents. Not only that, but they also asked questions such as "Where did you come from?", "Where are you going?", "How long will you be staying?", "Where are your bags?", "What's the purpose of your visit?". I found it quite strange, because both countries belong to the Schengen Area.

On the way back (from Sweden to Denmark), there was no control whatsoever.

Other than that, nobody has ever asked for my ID anywhere in Europe (outside of airports) and I've crossed quite a few land borders already.
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16810
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-24, 14:42

Sasabasa wrote:Vijayjohn: Yes. I can imagine that from all the movies I've seen.

Cop: pull over, sir. Hands on the wheel where I can see ' em. :)

Lol, in reality, it's not likely to be that exciting (it's not even terribly likely you'd actually get pulled over). Although sometimes it can get close (and much worse).
But maybe it's different, because there are so many types of people in the US. For example I had no idea Melaniea Trump was from Slovenia.

Yes. In the US, it is very easy for a minority group to become invisible. To a large extent, this is how Roma survive in this country; if no one notices them, no one will target them, either.
Everyone: The thing is the terrorists can strike anywhere, anytime using various starrategies. Nobody can prevent it.

Not being able to finish my espresso, because I look "suspicious" plainly sucks.

You're beginning to understand how us Indians in the US feel sometimes considering that some of us have been murdered because people thought they looked like terrorists.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20256
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-24, 16:30

vijayjohn wrote:The only time I can imagine that happening in the US is if the cops pull you over e.g. for speeding even though this is illegal unless they have reasonable suspicion to believe you have carried out a crime. I don't think they'd be able to tell you weren't American just from looking at you.

I was pulled over and asked for my ID while simply walking down a road in small-town Indiana. It's very much up to discretion of the officer whether they demand this. You can refuse, of course, at the cost of making yourself a target for further harassment.

I remember being asked for my passport crossing from Germany to the Netherlands on the train. They were going from compartment to compartment checking everyone. Of course, they barely looked at my US passport and the passport of the Dutchwoman with me, whereas the African man in the next compartment got grilled for half an hour. (I'm about as generically Northwest-European-looking as they come.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6285
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Discrimination

Postby Johanna » 2017-03-24, 16:41

Luís wrote:I traveled from Copenhagen to Stockholm by train a couple of years ago. Halfway through the Øresund bridge, some Swedish officers with dogs came in and asked for everyone's documents. Not only that, but they also asked questions such as "Where did you come from?", "Where are you going?", "How long will you be staying?", "Where are your bags?", "What's the purpose of your visit?". I found it quite strange, because both countries belong to the Schengen Area.

On the way back (from Sweden to Denmark), there was no control whatsoever.

Other than that, nobody has ever asked for my ID anywhere in Europe (outside of airports) and I've crossed quite a few land borders already.

Yeah, Sweden brought back border controls during the height of the refugee crisis back in 2015. Not that it truly helped discouraging anyone from seeking asylum here, but it did mean that some who were trying to get to Finland couldn't get there by traversing Sweden any more.

The really stupid part is that those controls still exist, and they've made the Öresund region partially revert back to its old Copenhagen vs western Scania division.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests