Welcome back, Varislintu! It's so nice to see you on UniLang again.
Varislintu wrote:I mean, what were you trying to tell me by saying that when I say 'I mean X not Y', I am actually saying 'I mean Y'?
I'm sorry, but I think I'm missing something here. When did I tell you anything about what you
You said "I mean X not Y," and IIRC I was trying to say Y was what Lauren actually was talking about in the first place.
I still feel very strongly that there has to be room within the "minority" grouping to be called out on excessively hurtful language, when that language expresses sentiments that are not part of valid critique but just broad-brush insults of an entire kind (like gender, religion, race or nationality etc), expressed not between two pairs of ears but "publically".
I dunno, I mean, you have every right to feel that way, but I see it differently. Maybe that's because I keep remembering how my grandfather apparently hated all
British people until the day he died. (OK, granted, I don't recall him ever saying this publically, but still). When my dad told me that, at first I thought he was nuts to think that way - and if you were Indian, you might have felt the same way. But now that I'm reading his diary, I can kind of see why he might have felt that way. Not all British people were absolutely horrible to him; he himself says some were actually very nice to him. Yet even they encouraged him to go risk his life in a fucking war for the sake of an empire that was all too eager to keep him and his people oppressed. Almost half a century later, he felt nothing had changed in the British people's racist attitudes since that war.
Was that an extreme sentiment on his part? Sure. Do I agree with him? No. But can I blame him for the way he felt? No. Maybe if he had met British people at that time who were against the war, he might not have insisted on that characterization of an entire country. But he never got that opportunity.
I hope Lauren notices and appreciates how much she is respected here, in that many people stood up and defended her right to make an above-mentioned "broad-brush insult to an entire kind".
"Many" people? I think it was a grand total of three. (Excluding herself, of course).
To the extent that me calling it out generated a "In Varislintu's defense..." post! By a cis man!
I have to raise my hat to some of you cis men.
Thanks, because that's awfully nice of you, but that's just the thing, right? You don't
have to because we shouldn't be discriminating against women anyway. Besides, the cis man you speak of used to be way more misogynistic than he is now.
What I mean is, the idea that 'men saying they hate women is not as oppressive as women saying they hate men' is absolutely true in our historical and cultural context.
Wait, don't you mean the other way around, i.e. that it's true in our historical and cultural context that men saying they hate women (misogyny) is more oppressive than
women saying they hate men (misandry?)?
Topsy turvily (in my view), the "wrong" in this case seems to have been me ally-failing by pointing out this obvious truth that we all agree with, out loud.
Taken out of context, I'm not sure there would be anything wrong with this at all. But this came after Vlürch wrote one of his long anti-feminist rants and then dEhiN started out expressing agreement with it, so in that context, it kind of comes across as taking sides with that
POV, even though of course that's not what you meant to do.
However, in fact in hind-sight I don't think this has anything to do with patriarchy or feminism, but me and Lauren clashing over meanness. Long-timers here might know that that is the one thing she and I have clashed over repeatedly, and I don't think there's anything to do about that. I can't stand meanness, she likes that style.
You're probably right. I also don't like it at all when people are just mean, especially because it's so easy to go from there to actually discriminating against exactly the same people you say you're trying not
to discriminate against. Remember how I was talking with Johanna about how Indians might not see asexuality in the same way as Westerners, and then Lauren tried to call me (and others) out for supposedly not listening to the asexual person? And then after Johanna confirmed that she didn't feel that way about the discussion, I pointed out how what Lauren did amounted to a white person telling a brown person to shut up?
That being said, I don't get the impression that Lauren is just trying to be mean while complaining about misogyny (although maybe that's just me). I think she feels genuinely angry and doesn't feel compelled to be nice about it, either. I agree she isn't compelled to feel nice about it, although I also feel that if I was as angry about racism as she is about misogyny, I think that would actually affect my own health pretty badly. Especially my mental health.