linguoboy wrote:Which didn't actually happen in this situation, so I'm not exactly sure what the issue is. She qualified her vents as not applying to all cis men when making them. So we're still dealing with vague statements of prejudice, but they are not as categorical as you make them out to be. As far as I can tell, the qualifications she made fall short of satisfying the arbitrary line you have between an acceptable expression of one's personal feelings and an unacceptable one, but I'm unclear where exactly you place this line and why.
I interpret that situation entirely differently. I was shocked to read her sentence, and because she doesn't almost ever kid or goof around or play the drama queen, I took it at face value. But I gave her the benefit of a small doubt, and offered her a chance to agree that "she hates mysogynistic people, not men, right?". But she sneered at this assumption, making sure that I understood that "I hate men" is part of her legitimate fight against oppression, and that she has every right to be as mean as she likes in the process.
Varislintu wrote:It's a prejudice, and even a really vague one at that (I take it Lauren doesn't really hate you, for example).
I wouldn't make that assumption. Whether she does or doesn't is of no material interest to me.
I'm so glad your personal comfort zone was not breached, then.
linguoboy wrote:Apparently you support a person's right to vent, but only so long as they phrase it in such a way as you find fully unproblematic. This is a different understanding of the nature of emotional venting than the one I have, so perhaps it isn't possible for us to see eye-to-eye on this. By its very nature, a vent is something beyond discussion or arguments. You either acknowledge and accept the emotional reality behind the crude way it's phrased or you don't.
With my follow-up question to her, I was probing to see if she was just venting. The answer was a pretty resounding "no".
And yes I find any version of a completely serious "I hate kind X" problematic. I'm pretty disappointed you two don't.
linguoboy wrote:If I said "I hate all men" in the Romance thread, would you start nitpicking that statement, too? Or would you simply accept it as an expression of my current state of frustration with male-associated behaviours and offer me sympathy?
Knowing your style, and if it was in a silly-dramatic context, I would give you a pass. (Noting 'nitpick' and adding it right next to Lauren's 'whine'. Thanks for these rhetorical gimmicks.)
EDIT to add: Oh, and especially since you are
a man. If one of my women friends broke up and ranted publically "men suck!", I would actually find it problematic. Don't involve others -- with a permanent, general, gender-targeted statement -- into your momentary mood swing.
linguoboy wrote:II'm sorry that Lauren's statements made some of the other cis men in the Forum uncomfortable.
Linguoboy, what has gotten into you? You just made a "I'm sorry some people felt offended" notpology. Are you two trying
to use all the rhetorical devices of the anti-feminist crowds? Is this whole thing some kind of "we will hold up a mirror to show how the other side usually sounds" kind of meta-debate? Am I actually being pranked here?
Lauren wrote:And it's kind of bullshit to say this place is safe and welcoming, because I definitely don't feel safe here.
You keep making this point, i.e. that somehow this justifies sweeping, petty-shot retaliation. But if you argue that you don't want to feel unsafe, and want others to pay attention to whether they are making places unsafe, but then completely
reject that this should ever
apply to you, then how are you to be taken seriously? Practice what you preach.
Lauren wrote:There are several misogynist, transphobic, anti-feminism cis men here that definitely make me feel not welcome our safe when they talk about those topics at all, but I highly doubt the admins would cater to me specifically by banning them, which I understand, so I just do my best to ignore them, and show what's wrong with what they're saying when I have the energy to.
Banning? I'd think this isn't mainly about external rules, but more about personal standards of conduct that stem from empathy.
And you just wished for a reality where you yourself would also be banned, for that post you made. I don't understand this double standard thinking at all.
Lauren wrote:Saying "I hate cis men" was just me being angry and blowing off steam. I don't actually hate every single cis man. Some, yes, but not all.
Then why for all things holy didn't you just say that for cripes sake? Why didn't you notice that "OMG, what did I actually post in my moment of anger, I don't actually mean that the way it came out", and go edit your post so that all men who pass through here wouldn't have to read it? From my perspective, since I asked for clarification, and got sneer, and never anything else, I'm inclined to think you were not
"just" blowing off steam, and are only now taking that position after the fact. I may be mistaken in that belief, but you haven't exactly given reason to think much else.
Lauren wrote:Plus, like I have said and linguoboy has said, the anger of the oppressed is not at all comparable to the hatred of the oppressors.
So which is it? Was it real hatred or not? If you weren't fully serious about your stated hatred of men, then why do you keep legitimising it by bringing up this argument? If it was just a mis-formulation, what does it have to do with the fight against oppression? This is another reason I think you were not just venting. Over-the-top vents don't have backing arguments.
To me this just sounds like, "I don't really hate all men, and how silly of you to take such a ridiculous notion seriously, but if I did it would be a valid feminist conclusion because I have links about how anger is justified in feminist expression." So which is it? A ridiculous thing to take seriously, or a valid feminist reaction/conclusion?
The overall impression I get is that you two want your cake and eat it too. I think you're wrong, but I don't think we can indeed convince each other.