Discrimination

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Патрислав Андреевич

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2015-11-11, 19:01

linguoboy wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I agree that systemic bigotry wherein societal prejudices are feeding into your bigoted worldview exists, and the impact of said systemic bigotry is large. But I don't believe that means the impact of someone who is a bigot but toward some group where there is no societal prejudice is nugatory. At least it may seem that way to the general populus. But not if that person decides to take harmful action against a member of the group they have a prejudice toward.

So what you're saying is that a person's harmful actions targeted against another specific person are more injurious to that person than a harmful action targeted against a class of people to whom that specific person happens to belong?

I'd say that's right, though. When somebody - like Lauren - says they hate about half of the population, and goes on a "social justice" crusade accusing and attacking everyone around who isn't with them - I'd just roll my eyes and think it's ridiculous. But the more specific the target of such hate or actions become - the more personal it gets. And then I'd expect it to be more harmful.

For example, saying "all men are morons" is just prejudice, but "you are a moron" is a personal attack, and I'd wonder what have I personally done.

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Re: Random language thread 4

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-11, 19:13

Патрислав Андреевич wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I agree that systemic bigotry wherein societal prejudices are feeding into your bigoted worldview exists, and the impact of said systemic bigotry is large. But I don't believe that means the impact of someone who is a bigot but toward some group where there is no societal prejudice is nugatory. At least it may seem that way to the general populus. But not if that person decides to take harmful action against a member of the group they have a prejudice toward.

So what you're saying is that a person's harmful actions targeted against another specific person are more injurious to that person than a harmful action targeted against a class of people to whom that specific person happens to belong?

I'd say that's right, though. When somebody - like Lauren - says they hate about half of the population, and goes on a "social justice" crusade accusing and attacking everyone around who isn't with them - I'd just roll my eyes and think it's ridiculous. But the more specific the target of such hate or actions become - the more personal it gets. And then I'd expect it to be more harmful.

Exactly my point. Someone targeting you individually (for whatever reason) will always be more harmful than targetting an entire group. It's an observation which adds nothing to the discussion, since no one here was targetted individually.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Lauren » 2015-11-11, 21:45

dehin wrote:Please don't get me wrong: regardless of my own personal views on things, I believe that someone should be free to express themselves - their thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. But I responded to all of this because I honestly don't believe that if someone had written "I'm fed up with trans women" or even "I'm fed up with women", it would have been left alone as 'that's that person's opinion'. In fact, and I'm definitely being presumptious here, I'm fairly certain Lauren would be one of the users who, had someone written that and she saw it, responded strongly. So that's really what I'm attacking here - the fact that if someone on this forum could not write "I'm fed up with women" without facing a backlash, then someone on this forum should not be able to write "I'm fed up with cis men" without also facing a backlash.

Yes, of course I would be angry if someone was discriminating against trans women (and have been because there's quite a bit of transphobic people on this forum). The thing you still fail to understand though, is that reverse discrimination doesn't exist. A trans woman saying "I hate men" is waaaaay fucking different then men saying "I hate (trans) women)" because men are the oppressors of trans and cis women, not the other way around. As linguoboy has recently stated in this thread, it has everything to do with who actually has the power in society. I've linked to this before and I will here again, since it does a better job at explaining it than my BPD brain can.

http://racismschool.tumblr.com/Racism:Definitions

It applies to all kinds of institutionalized forms of discrimination too, like misogyny and transphobia.

Also, please read this:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/wha ... ege-means/

Also, this is useful:

http://lookatthisfuckingoppressor.tumbl ... ing-to-say
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Re: Discrimination

Postby dEhiN » 2015-11-13, 8:08

You know what...we are all free to believe how we see fit, and define words in whatever way we choose to. I'll just say this: to me, what Lauren said is directed specifically at me because I am one of those in the group she was talking about. Even Lauren in her post right above mine talks about groupings and speaks of this idea of an individual spouting hatred toward an entire group is discriminating against each and every member of that group, though clearly there's the implicit understanding that no specific group member was singled out.

So with all of that, and because I am sick of this back and forth, Lauren I'll say this to you. I am in no way threatening you, I am just responding to what I perceive as an espoused attitude that makes me feel unsafe in what is supposed to be a safe and inviting forum community focused on a common interest of love of languages:

Since you are quick to call out or report anyone who writes anything that makes you, as a trans woman, feel unsafe, if in the future you make a post that makes me, as a cis man, feel unsafe I will report you to the mods. Because the way I see it, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You can't expect everyone else on here to be trans friendly and then you not be cis friendly.

And with that I'm not going to respond to this thread anymore. So please don't quote me in future responses.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Varislintu » 2015-11-13, 9:54

From the post above:

"what I perceive as an espoused attitude that makes me feel unsafe in what is supposed to be a safe and inviting forum community focused on a common interest of love of languages"

Exactly. The idea that men can't take damage from being casually exposed to someone's personal opinions that "I hate all your kind" is not based on anything sound. Being a man is something you're born with, and you shouldn't be hated for such a thing.

And again, such a sentiment is not firmly derivable from to the whole issue of oppression. There are plenty of misogynistic women out there who actively do damage to women's and trans rights. Communities like "Ladies against feminism", for example. Women who actively make it their cause to oppose progressive causes. And there are countless men who are aware of the patriarchal legacy and go out of their way to not perpetuate it. So concluding that you "hate men" doesn't hit any target. Therefore it's just a vective, an insult. Doesn't argue your case, doesn't make you sound like you have a keen eye on the causes of oppression.

A recently attacked person can be forgiven for having such an opinion, because they have gone through something traumatising through no fault of their own. Random people chillaxing on a recreational forum, on the other hand, can do better.

And yeah, of course it's wonderful if someone only says "I hate your kind" instead of going out to physically attack them. But this is exactly the kind of thing, tables turned, when people would rightfully ask "You want a cookie for that achievement?" You didn't go out and punch some random innocent men in the head in retaliation, instead you told some random inocent men you hate their kind. Cookie definitely deserved. But still, in this particular community, where the men around have not done anything demonstrably wrong [edit: this should read 'have not demonstrably done anything physically violent], your statement is the most verbally violent thing around.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-13, 16:02

I'm sorry, but I can't ignore the glaring false equivalence here. I find it really hard to comprehend how the presence of one lone person ranting against cis men in this forum can have the effect of making this an "unsafe space" for them when the forum is still completely dominated by cis men. It's simply not comparable to being the one of the only openly identified trans women here in a world where trans women are being openly harassed and murdered at an alarming rate solely on account of being trans women.

Could Lauren have expressed herself better? Of course she could have. We could all express ourselves better here. None of us is a silver-tongue rhetorician. But part of belonging to a marginalised community in this society is dealing with a great deal of frustration at the ignorance and hostility you encountre at the hands of those with tremendous social capital. Sometimes you simply need to blow off steam at those making your life difficult and, lo and behold, you may end up doing that in a crude and thoughtless way.

If you're part of that privileged segment of the population named in such a blast, you have a choice to make in this situation: You can focus on your own minor personal discomfort and make things all about you or you can have some goddamn bit of empathy for someone who's dealing with shit you've never had to experience and never will.

As a cis man, was I pleased to see a general complaint leveled at all cis men on a forum I enjoy reading? Not particularly. But, as someone who's also witnessed a constant stream of crappy behaviour from cis men over the years, I totally understand where it's coming from. Frankly, what I see from other cis men makes me frustrated as well, on a daily basis. So I saw absolutely no benefit to anyone from complaining about a poorly-phrased vent and let it slide. What did that cost me? Almost nothing. Would it be different if I lived in a world where microaggressions against cis men were a constant part of the wallpaper of my life? You betcha. But you know what? We don't live in that world and--contrary to the paranoid fantasies of the Vlürches of the world--we never will.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-11-13, 16:52

linguoboy wrote:I find it really hard to comprehend how the presence of one lone person ranting against cis men in this forum can have the effect of making this an "unsafe space"

Because one person's ranting can be all that's needed to make you feel very unwelcome indeed.
We want this forum to be a welcoming space for everyone, not only for those who might have a harder time being welcomed in society at large.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-13, 17:10

Aurinĭa wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I find it really hard to comprehend how the presence of one lone person ranting against cis men in this forum can have the effect of making this an "unsafe space"

Because one person's ranting can be all that's needed to make you feel very unwelcome indeed.
We want this forum to be a welcoming space for everyone, not only for those who might have a harder time being welcomed in society at large.

A "welcoming space" and a "safe space" are not the same thing, although they have some aspects in common.

Incidentally, I don't perceive this space as a welcoming or a safe one and that has nothing to do with the sentiments expressed by particular members and everything to do with how power is exercised within it.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-11-13, 19:13

Aurinĭa wrote:Because one person's ranting can be all that's needed to make you feel very unwelcome indeed.
We want this forum to be a welcoming space for everyone, not only for those who might have a harder time being welcomed in society at large.

But that isn't really possible anyway, is it? People can and do feel unwelcome for all sorts of reasons that aren't necessarily under our control. I have seen all of the following happen on this forum:
► Show Spoiler


So who do you want this to be a welcoming space for, exactly? Surely it's obvious that you can't please everyone. You really have no choice but to take some sort of clear stand on who you will and will not accept beyond just "we will not accept spammers or people who we think consistently break the rules."

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Varislintu » 2015-11-13, 22:12

linguoboy wrote:I'm sorry, but I can't ignore the glaring false equivalence here. I find it really hard to comprehend how the presence of one lone person ranting against cis men in this forum can have the effect of making this an "unsafe space" for them when the forum is still completely dominated by cis men. It's simply not comparable to being the one of the only openly identified trans women here in a world where trans women are being openly harassed and murdered at an alarming rate solely on account of being trans women.


I don't have a problem with Lauren ranting against cis men. If that is what's actually being talked about in this thread, then I have no bone to pick. Of course she has a right to do that.

I have a problem with the sentence "I hate men" being thrown out in an apparent not-hyperbolish, not-silly-dramatic way. More like in a deeply-held-disgust kind of way. And then doubling down on it when criticised. That sentence has nothing to do with feminism or oppression or fighting for a cause anymore. Of course people's emotions can't be controlled by others, but I think it's part of normal social behaviour not to tell people you hate their kind, when they haven't asked you to open up about it.

The difference that I see between the hypothetical that men feel a space is unsafe because of angry-toned feminist arguments, and because they have to hear that someone hates their gender, is that the latter is completely beyond any discussion or arguments. It's a prejudice, and even a really vague one at that (I take it Lauren doesn't really hate you, for example). And it's targeted at a trait that you were born with, not your actual conduct. It's not right. "Never met you, never talked to you, never seen you treat others one way or the other, but I hate you."

It's entirely possible that I just don't understand you and Lauren's position on this, or some aspect of it. But so far, I disagree with you persons on this, quite strongly.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-13, 23:00

Varislintu wrote:I have a problem with the sentence "I hate men" being thrown out in an apparent not-hyperbolish, not-silly-dramatic way.

Which didn't actually happen in this situation, so I'm not exactly sure what the issue is. She qualified her vents as not applying to all cis men when making them. So we're still dealing with vague statements of prejudice, but they are not as categorical as you make them out to be. As far as I can tell, the qualifications she made fall short of satisfying the arbitrary line you have between an acceptable expression of one's personal feelings and an unacceptable one, but I'm unclear where exactly you place this line and why.

Varislintu wrote:It's a prejudice, and even a really vague one at that (I take it Lauren doesn't really hate you, for example).

I wouldn't make that assumption. Whether she does or doesn't is of no material interest to me.

Varislintu wrote:It's entirely possible that I just don't understand you and Lauren's position on this, or some aspect of it. But so far, I disagree with you persons on this, quite strongly.

Apparently you support a person's right to vent, but only so long as they phrase it in such a way as you find fully unproblematic. This is a different understanding of the nature of emotional venting than the one I have, so perhaps it isn't possible for us to see eye-to-eye on this. By its very nature, a vent is something beyond discussion or arguments. You either acknowledge and accept the emotional reality behind the crude way it's phrased or you don't.

If I said "I hate all men" in the Romance thread, would you start nitpicking that statement, too? Or would you simply accept it as an expression of my current state of frustration with male-associated behaviours and offer me sympathy?

I'm sorry that Lauren's statements made some of the other cis men in the Forum uncomfortable. That's not an optimal outcome for anyone involved. But given some of the extremely negative categorical statements about homosexuality I've personally had to tolerate here, I have a very hard time understanding what exactly they're so upset by.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby kevin » 2015-11-13, 23:05

If there's something that makes me feel unsafe, it's not that someone who doesn't even know me tells me that they hate me. I think I can deal with that (mostly by making a mental note of how serious to take this person). It's more the expectation of being shouted down if I express in some way that I'm not happy about that. Because, you know, I'm an oppressor by definition and automatically wrong no matter what I say, so I do deserve to be hated by people who don't even know me and I should be okay with that.

That's also the reason why I wanted to keep this posting short and use cautious wording, because I feel it might not be the best idea for me to post in this thread at all. But I guess I've already said too much...

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Lauren » 2015-11-13, 23:12

Varislintu wrote:It's entirely possible that I just don't understand you and Lauren's position on this, or some aspect of it. But so far, I disagree with you persons on this, quite strongly.

You're right, you still don't understand. And it's kind of bullshit to say this place is safe and welcoming, because I definitely don't feel safe here. There are several misogynist, transphobic, anti-feminism cis men here that definitely make me feel not welcome our safe when they talk about those topics at all, but I highly doubt the admins would cater to me specifically by banning them, which I understand, so I just do my best to ignore them, and show what's wrong with what they're saying when I have the energy to.

Also, linguoboy's penultimate post was pretty much perfect at describing everything. Thank you linguoboy's, for understanding and explaining it better than I can. You could learn from reading that, Varislintu. Saying "I hate cis men" was just me being angry and blowing off steam. I don't actually hate every single cis man. Some, yes, but not all. Plus, like I have said and linguoboy has said, the anger of the oppressed is not at all comparable to the hatred of the oppressors.

@kevin: No, I don't hate you. You don't seem to understand either that I don't actually hate all cis men for no reason. I am very pissed off at some cis men, and for a very good reason. Also, I've been trying to point out that people need to shut up and listen instead of not recognizing their privilege and defending themselves for no reason and trying to make it about them.

This is a relevant article, especially point #1:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/thi ... d-to-know/
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-14, 2:53

kevin wrote:It's more the expectation of being shouted down if I express in some way that I'm not happy about that.

Funny thing: people often say I'm "shouting" when I'm just talking at normal volume. Interesting how subjective these things are, isn't it?

Here's another funny thing: As I say above, I wasn't happy with how Lauren expressed herself either. It struck me as an unduly harsh and negative thing to say. It bothered me enough that I complained to my husband about it over dinner that night (inbetween complaints about my stupid cold and an annoyingly busy workday). And then we started talking about what we were doing this weekend. Because that's how little impact a remark like that has on my life in the absence of a general background of societal cis-phobia to reinforce it.

I had briefly considered responding in the thread, but I just couldn't see any benefit to it. She tends to stick to her guns and there was the potential there for things to get really unpleasant. And then I took a moment to think about some of the bullshit the transgender people I know go through on a daily basis and I really couldn't see any point in challenging one on account of a passing remark. It wasn't like she was looking to start something; vijayjohn asked her a question and she answered based on where she was at the time. Plus, as I said, I have my own issues with cis men and it wouldn't be uncharacteristic of me to say something like that on a day they were really getting me down. (Goddess knows I make sweeping complaints about gay men generally often enough.)

I'm not saying that just because this was the way I decided to handle it that this is how Vlürch and dEhiN should've handled it, too. (Although I don't see anything preventing them from doing that.) They are completely entitled to their own reactions and to express those reactions publicly. Had they done only that, I would've passed over their posts without responding as well. But they didn't stop there. They had to go further, into the realm of nonsense slippery slope arguments about a careless vent being tantamount to randomly executing people and eye-rolling false equivalences about how trans women expressing dislike of cis men is exactly as bad as the reverse, despite the fact that we live in a world where cis men unprovokedly attack and kill trans women by the hundreds whereas I have never ever heard of a single verified occurrence of the reverse.

kevin wrote:Because, you know, I'm an oppressor by definition and automatically wrong no matter what I say, so I do deserve to be hated by people who don't even know me and I should be okay with that.

Do I deserve to be hated by people who don't even know me? Does Lauren? I don't think so, but it doesn't really matter since we are regardless and we have to find some way of dealing with that.

I guess I really should be more sympathetic. I wish I could be. And maybe if I saw more cis men getting half as upset by real existential threats to women and LGBTQ people as they get about imagined threats to cis men, I would be.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Varislintu » 2015-11-14, 6:48

linguoboy wrote:Which didn't actually happen in this situation, so I'm not exactly sure what the issue is. She qualified her vents as not applying to all cis men when making them. So we're still dealing with vague statements of prejudice, but they are not as categorical as you make them out to be. As far as I can tell, the qualifications she made fall short of satisfying the arbitrary line you have between an acceptable expression of one's personal feelings and an unacceptable one, but I'm unclear where exactly you place this line and why.


I interpret that situation entirely differently. I was shocked to read her sentence, and because she doesn't almost ever kid or goof around or play the drama queen, I took it at face value. But I gave her the benefit of a small doubt, and offered her a chance to agree that "she hates mysogynistic people, not men, right?". But she sneered at this assumption, making sure that I understood that "I hate men" is part of her legitimate fight against oppression, and that she has every right to be as mean as she likes in the process.

linguoboy wrote:
Varislintu wrote:It's a prejudice, and even a really vague one at that (I take it Lauren doesn't really hate you, for example).

I wouldn't make that assumption. Whether she does or doesn't is of no material interest to me.


I'm so glad your personal comfort zone was not breached, then.

linguoboy wrote:Apparently you support a person's right to vent, but only so long as they phrase it in such a way as you find fully unproblematic. This is a different understanding of the nature of emotional venting than the one I have, so perhaps it isn't possible for us to see eye-to-eye on this. By its very nature, a vent is something beyond discussion or arguments. You either acknowledge and accept the emotional reality behind the crude way it's phrased or you don't.


With my follow-up question to her, I was probing to see if she was just venting. The answer was a pretty resounding "no".

And yes I find any version of a completely serious "I hate kind X" problematic. I'm pretty disappointed you two don't.

linguoboy wrote:If I said "I hate all men" in the Romance thread, would you start nitpicking that statement, too? Or would you simply accept it as an expression of my current state of frustration with male-associated behaviours and offer me sympathy?


Knowing your style, and if it was in a silly-dramatic context, I would give you a pass. (Noting 'nitpick' and adding it right next to Lauren's 'whine'. Thanks for these rhetorical gimmicks.)

EDIT to add: Oh, and especially since you are a man. If one of my women friends broke up and ranted publically "men suck!", I would actually find it problematic. Don't involve others -- with a permanent, general, gender-targeted statement -- into your momentary mood swing.

linguoboy wrote:II'm sorry that Lauren's statements made some of the other cis men in the Forum uncomfortable.


Linguoboy, what has gotten into you? You just made a "I'm sorry some people felt offended" notpology. Are you two trying to use all the rhetorical devices of the anti-feminist crowds? Is this whole thing some kind of "we will hold up a mirror to show how the other side usually sounds" kind of meta-debate? Am I actually being pranked here?

Lauren wrote:And it's kind of bullshit to say this place is safe and welcoming, because I definitely don't feel safe here.


You keep making this point, i.e. that somehow this justifies sweeping, petty-shot retaliation. But if you argue that you don't want to feel unsafe, and want others to pay attention to whether they are making places unsafe, but then completely reject that this should ever apply to you, then how are you to be taken seriously? Practice what you preach.

Lauren wrote:There are several misogynist, transphobic, anti-feminism cis men here that definitely make me feel not welcome our safe when they talk about those topics at all, but I highly doubt the admins would cater to me specifically by banning them, which I understand, so I just do my best to ignore them, and show what's wrong with what they're saying when I have the energy to.


Banning? I'd think this isn't mainly about external rules, but more about personal standards of conduct that stem from empathy.

And you just wished for a reality where you yourself would also be banned, for that post you made. I don't understand this double standard thinking at all.

Lauren wrote:Saying "I hate cis men" was just me being angry and blowing off steam. I don't actually hate every single cis man. Some, yes, but not all.


Then why for all things holy didn't you just say that for cripes sake? Why didn't you notice that "OMG, what did I actually post in my moment of anger, I don't actually mean that the way it came out", and go edit your post so that all men who pass through here wouldn't have to read it? From my perspective, since I asked for clarification, and got sneer, and never anything else, I'm inclined to think you were not "just" blowing off steam, and are only now taking that position after the fact. I may be mistaken in that belief, but you haven't exactly given reason to think much else.

Lauren wrote:Plus, like I have said and linguoboy has said, the anger of the oppressed is not at all comparable to the hatred of the oppressors.


So which is it? Was it real hatred or not? If you weren't fully serious about your stated hatred of men, then why do you keep legitimising it by bringing up this argument? If it was just a mis-formulation, what does it have to do with the fight against oppression? This is another reason I think you were not just venting. Over-the-top vents don't have backing arguments.

To me this just sounds like, "I don't really hate all men, and how silly of you to take such a ridiculous notion seriously, but if I did it would be a valid feminist conclusion because I have links about how anger is justified in feminist expression." So which is it? A ridiculous thing to take seriously, or a valid feminist reaction/conclusion?

The overall impression I get is that you two want your cake and eat it too. I think you're wrong, but I don't think we can indeed convince each other.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-11-14, 7:23

Varislintu wrote:she doesn't almost ever kid or goof around

Really? Honestly, I'm not sure I can think of anyone who's been on this forum in the past three years who has never done that. If she almost never does that, then what was this, minus the small print? :)

Lauren certainly kids and goofs around, although she's understandably very serious about issues she and other women face (especially trans women since there's, what, one other trans woman on the whole forum?). She's just not around as much now as she used to be, so probably you don't see her doing it nearly as much now as she used to.
But I gave her the benefit of a small doubt, and offered her a chance to agree that "she hates mysogynistic people, not men, right?". But she sneered at this assumption, making sure that I understood that "I hate men" is part of her legitimate fight against oppression, and that she has every right to be as mean as she likes in the process.

I looked back at her post, and I don't think she was trying to sneer or anything. I think she was trying to express her frustration with the fact that she felt she was being repeatedly attacked on this forum for being trans, all while having to deal with a mental disorder and God knows what else on top of that.
With my follow-up question to her, I was probing to see if she was just venting. The answer was a pretty resounding "no".

I suspect the way you interpret that sequence of events is not the way she interpreted it at all.
Noting 'nitpick' and adding it right next to Lauren's 'whine'. Thanks for these rhetorical gimmicks.

Wait, now I'm confused what you mean by that. :hmm:
Linguoboy, what has gotten into you? You just made a "I'm sorry some people felt offended" notpology.

I'm not so sure that's what he meant. :|
Lauren wrote:Saying "I hate cis men" was just me being angry and blowing off steam. I don't actually hate every single cis man. Some, yes, but not all.


Then why for all things holy didn't you just say that for cripes sake? Why didn't you notice that "OMG, what did I actually post in my moment of anger, I don't actually mean that the way it came out", and go edit your post so that all men who pass through here wouldn't have to read it?

Maybe because there's nothing wrong with ranting per se and she shouldn't have to feel ashamed just for doing that, or be punished for something she said in the process? Is it really that bad in your opinion that someone ranted on a part of the forum that's not visible to the general public and then didn't edit it out afterwards? I'm just asking that last question out of curiosity.

Honestly, now I think this whole thing has just been a big misunderstanding on...perhaps several sides.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Varislintu » 2015-11-14, 7:54

vijayjohn wrote:Really?


Yeah, really. That's my impression of her. Especially not in posts about equality issues. I'm not claiming that's a universal impression that everybody has, I'd hope that's obvious. How could I claim that?

vijayjohn wrote:I looked back at her post, and I don't think she was trying to sneer or anything.


"Stop whining about how I should be 'nicer'", she said.

vijayjohn wrote:
With my follow-up question to her, I was probing to see if she was just venting. The answer was a pretty resounding "no".

I suspect the way you interpret that sequence of events is not the way she interpreted it at all.


Well, of course. No offense but you're kind of stating obviousities, and I don't quite understand why. That's why I'm still posting about this incident, even. In some kind of hope of making sense of it, and different parties' reactions.

vijayjohn wrote:
Noting 'nitpick' and adding it right next to Lauren's 'whine'. Thanks for these rhetorical gimmicks.

Wait, now I'm confused what you mean by that. :hmm:


Lauren depicted my question "your target for hatred is better defined as mysogynists, not men, right?" as 'whining', and linguoboy depicts my finding that it's not right to hate a whole gender as 'nitpicking'. I've been around the block on the internet, I know what they are doing by those choices of words.

vijayjohn wrote:
Linguoboy, what has gotten into you? You just made a "I'm sorry some people felt offended" notpology.

I'm not so sure that's what he meant. :|


No, I guess people in general don't seem to mean their words on this forum. :lol: *pulls hair*

vijayjohn wrote:
Lauren wrote:Saying "I hate cis men" was just me being angry and blowing off steam. I don't actually hate every single cis man. Some, yes, but not all.


Then why for all things holy didn't you just say that for cripes sake? Why didn't you notice that "OMG, what did I actually post in my moment of anger, I don't actually mean that the way it came out", and go edit your post so that all men who pass through here wouldn't have to read it?

Maybe because there's nothing wrong with ranting per se and she shouldn't have to feel ashamed just for doing that, or be punished for something she said in the process? Is it really that bad in your opinion that someone ranted on a part of the forum that's not visible to the general public and then didn't edit it out afterwards? I'm just asking that last question out of curiosity.

Honestly, now I think this whole thing has just been a big misunderstanding on...perhaps several sides.


How did this go back to being about 'ranting' again? Do I really express myself that badly? In all my posts, I've tried to define very precisely what bothered me and why, and what didn't. I'm seriously taken aback that it doesn't come through (at all?), and I wonder if I need more writing skill lessons.

Alternatively, everybody here knows that there's no way to really defend "I fucking hate men", so they keep transforming my arguments to be about tone, so that there is anything at all to even debate about.

Seriously, sorry if I'm getting agitated about this -- I'm going to take a couple days off Unilang to cool down. I think it's also coming across as if I'm obsessive about this issue, since I reply to the replies about it.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-11-14, 8:03

Varislintu wrote:No offense but you're kind of stating obviousities, and I don't quite understand why. That's why I'm still posting about this incident, even. In some kind of hope of making sense of it, and different parties' reactions.

Oh okay. I didn't realize that's what you were trying to do rather than defending your position or something. Sorry.
How did this go back to being about 'ranting' again?

Um...because that's what she actually...did? :hmm:
Seriously, sorry if I'm getting agitated about this -- I'm going to take a couple days off Unilang to cool down. I think it's also coming across as if I'm obsessive about this issue, since I reply to the replies about it.

I think I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't necessarily share your views on what happened or see it the same way as you do. But yeah, sometimes it does all of us good to take a bit of time off. :) (Says the guy with way too many posts :lol:)

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Re: Discrimination

Postby dEhiN » 2015-11-14, 9:07

I disagree Vijay about this being just a big misunderstanding. To me this is about a double standard of behaviour! The reality, at least as I see it , is that if a cis man wrote "Haven't really been able to stand trans women in any way at all lately. So I do my best to avoid them" (because those were Lauren's exact words that started all this), it would not be tolerated. Even if the person were to express later that they were just venting or ranting*, it wouldn't matter. I also believe that if a comment like that was read by Lauren, she definitely would respond strongly.

(*And anyone who's been around on the Internet for a bit knows that it's a good idea to qualify a vent/rant in some way, so people don't think that's your attitude ALL THE TIME! You and linguoboy calling this venting and ranting implies that this was a temporary opinion of Lauren's, which I disagree with based on her posts in general).

But that's exactly what Lauren wrote. So I responded on the basis of what I see as the principle that if a cis man couldn't write a comment like that, Lauren shouldn't be able to. And this has nothing to do with cis men being the majority. To me the principle is either comments like those - where you generalize all the individuals in a particular people group as one and make a sweeping negative comment of that group - are going to be acceptable on this forum or not. Regardless of which people group the commentor belongs to, and which people group the comment is targeted at.

But then linguoboy argued that somehow it's different when the commentor is in the majority group and the recipient(s) of the comments are the minority group versus the other way around. That somehow due to things like systemic and societal prejudices, it's nugatory when the commentor is part of the majority group and the recipients the minority. So, for example, a trans woman can express negativity toward cis men as a group because trans women are minority and so are justified. But a cis man is part of the majority and so if he ever expressed negativity toward trans women as a group, it's solely indicative of the societal prejudice and therefore unacceptable.

But the way I see it is that linguoboy and Lauren are operating under two logical inconsistencies:

1) They are (conveniently?) talking about groups of people instead of individuals.

2) They are both acting as if a cis man is solely that - a cis man, despite Lauren herself referencing the concept of intersectionality.

Let's deal with number 1. Groups are made up of individuals. And anytime you generalize and talk about your thoughts on a group, it is taken as you are including every single member of that group. So if you don't mean every single member of the group, then you need to specify that. By Lauren saying "Haven't really been able to stand cis men in any way at all lately. So I do my best to avoid them", I as a cis man will naturally feel she is including me. And so naturally I will also read that as Lauren can't stand me solely on the basis of my being cis male. Meaning I will feel discriminated against because someone is saying they can't stand me and are trying to avoid me solely due to my gender. Yet the way I see linguoboy and Lauren arguing for things, I shouldn't feel discriminated against. That it only is discrimination the other way around?

Yeah systemic prejudice exists. And yeah I don't know what it's like to face trans phobia or prejudice against women. And yeah if I said something against trans woman as a group, or even specifically to an individual trans woman, solely on the basis of their gender, that would be me being discriminatory. But so is what Lauren said. Because she was referring to all cis men solely on the basis of their gender.

Let's deal with number 2. When Lauren used the term "intersectional feminism", I looked up what it meant. And as far as I understand it, it's the idea that a women faces prejudice in different ways based on the different sections of society she falls into. So a white women in the west would face prejudice solely on her gender. A non-white woman would experience it on the basis of her gender, her skin colour, and probably a combination of both at times. But this concept of intersectionality applies to men as well.

It's true men don't face prejudice on the basis of their gender, in almost all cases. But men can face prejudice on the basis of other things core to their identity. And I think this is relevant because that means a cis man could still understand what it means to face discrimination and prejudice. I don't know what it's like to face trans phobia nor female directed oppression. But I know what it's like to face sexual orientation based phobia. I know what it's like to experience racism. So grouping me together in this majority cis men group is looking at one dimension of me.

Actually speaking of racism, let me illustrate my point with an example. Based on what linguoboy and Lauren are arguing, it would be ok for me to write "I can't stand white people and I'm doing my best to avoid them" on here. Further, if then someone who is white were to take offense to that, or argue in any way that I couldn't write that, I could say "well I'm brown and you're white, and you don't know what it's like to face rascim but I do, so it's completely acceptable for me to say that".

And to me, that isn't acceptable!
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Lauren » 2015-11-14, 10:03

Actually speaking of racism, let me illustrate my point with an example. Based on what linguoboy and Lauren are arguing, it would be ok for me to write "I can't stand white people and I'm doing my best to avoid them" on here. Further, if then someone who is white were to take offense to that, or argue in any way that I couldn't write that, I could say "well I'm brown and you're white, and you don't know what it's like to face rascim but I do, so it's completely acceptable for me to say that".

And to me, that isn't acceptable!

I wouldn't blame you one bit if you said that, to be honest. I know you're a person of color, and I definitely know quite a bit about racism. As much as an angry white trans woman can know. If you ranted and said you hate white people and have nothing to do with them, I'd understand one hundred percent, because that's exactly the same thing as what I said. People of color have a fuckton of reasons to be mad at and even hate white people. I would completely understand them being sick and tired of racist people. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people of color that wasn't nothing to do with white people, racist or not, and I support them (well, condone, I guess). They have the right to be angry.

So, let me sum up what I did, from my point of view:

1) I was really fucking angry because of really disgusting misogyny and vented about it, saying I hate all men and want nothing to do with them.
2) After I calmed down I don't actually feel that way. I was really fucking angry, and for good reason. There's no way in hell I'll ever just sit idly by and be happy with what misogynists do. I don't actually hate every single cis man though, I was just really frustrated. Sometimes I just get worked up because anger at misogyny. And mental illness.

I've had a friend of color say that they hated white people because they were pissed off at institutionalized racism. Obviously they didn't direct that at me and I understood where they were coming from and didn't take it personally. If they did actually hate all white people I would understand that too.

Here an article worth checking out on the topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics
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