Discrimination

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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-04-03, 5:43

Saim wrote:-I was in Szklarska Poręba (Sudets) skiing and a dresiarz (a Polish chav, basically) yelled at me "chodź ciapaty, pij mleko" (come here "ciapaty", drink some milk).

I wonder how common it is outside South Asian communities to know what a chapati is. How do people find out about it anyway? It doesn't exactly seem to be standard Indian restaurant food. :hmm:

Also, this reminded me of an Indian comic I have about some kid who moves to Chandigarh and hates it because all these kids at school pick on him. I think he's supposed to be South Indian because the first remark they show someone making is "hey idli-sambar! Eat chapati!" (God, insults can be so dumb :lol:).
Prowler wrote:The funny thing about all of this is that many Europeans think Americans are very racist

I get your point, but I read this and thought, "That's because we are!" :P

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-03, 7:03

I dunno about that. But I can't help but notice that, for such a country that brags about all of its diversity in culture and races and such, most people seem to almost be/feel "forced" to assimilate into the American culture and basically forget everything about their parents/grandparents homeland and culture, starting with their language. So many Americans proudly claiming to be Irish/Italian/German/etc... yet seem to barely know anything or care about the places their ancestors come from. I look at a group of white Americans and they all seem to act "the same", just like Asian and Black Americans to me also don't seem different from White ones for the most part asides from their physical appearances.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Luís » 2017-04-03, 9:05

I've worked with people from Spain a lot in the past (mostly from Barcelona, but also Madrid) and I have more than once heard the comment "Wow, you do have a lot of black people in Lisbon". I'm not sure this is racist, but still. In terms of percentage, there are in fact more black people in Portugal (mostly from our former colonies).

When it comes to discrimination around here, the Roma take the first spot.

Other than that, people aren't that consistent. They can easily discriminate against Brazilians (even if they're white) but won't care than our current prime minister is Indian (seriously, his ethnicity wasn't even mentioned during the campaign). People will discriminate against people of African origin, but will look at them as heroes if they score a goal for the national team... :roll:
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Hent » 2017-04-03, 10:36

Luís wrote:I've worked with people from Spain a lot in the past (mostly from Barcelona, but also Madrid) and I have more than once heard the comment "Wow, you do have a lot of black people in Lisbon". I'm not sure this is racist, but still. In terms of percentage, there are in fact more black people in Portugal (mostly from our former colonies).

When it comes to discrimination around here, the Roma take the first spot.

Other than that, people aren't that consistent. They can easily discriminate against Brazilians (even if they're white) but won't care than our current prime minister is Indian (seriously, his ethnicity wasn't even mentioned during the campaign). People will discriminate against people of African origin, but will look at them as heroes if they score a goal for the national team... :roll:



Yeah the Roma have it hard everywhere. People usually ignore them and discuss them afterwards. I've spent some time with these people and some are okay some not so much. Depends on your POV though. I kind of accepted even the drug dealers or thieves, but on the other hand they really looked up to criminals as heroes. They wouldn't respect the hard working citizens, but rather the drug dealing , gambling Kosovans. It's very problematic, but many have jobs and are as hard working as anybody else. When I was working in Jotun Powder Coatings, we had a Roma manager which is not seen as often.

The Vietnamese are not seen this way, but there are many positive stereotypes about them such as being hard working, always smiling and happy etc. Some people dislike them, calling them slurs (čingčong, ťaman) and much more people are familiar to them. They use the informal pronouns as if they were inferior.
Very patronizing behavior.

In Usti there are not as many tourists as in Prague, so it leads to situations where people stare at an African guy in the waiting room and even I find it irksome, let alone the Congolese.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Saim » 2017-04-03, 10:53

vijayjohn wrote:I wonder how common it is outside South Asian communities to know what a chapati is. How do people find out about it anyway? It doesn't exactly seem to be standard Indian restaurant food. :hmm:


Oh, most people who use it don't know the etymology. My understanding is that it came from the UK Polonia (Polish diaspora community) in the UK.

It's funny because I've always thought of naan as more famous among Westerners, at least in Australia.

Also, this reminded me of an Indian comic I have about some kid who moves to Chandigarh and hates it because all these kids at school pick on him. I think he's supposed to be South Indian because the first remark they show someone making is "hey idli-sambar! Eat chapati!" (God, insults can be so dumb :lol:).


When my dad was a kid his family lived in Peshawar for a couple of years, and apparently (according to my dadi), the Pashtun kids would call him پنجابی دال خور (Punjabi daal-eater). :lol:

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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-04-03, 12:12

Saim wrote:Oh, most people who use it don't know the etymology. My understanding is that it came from the UK Polonia (Polish diaspora community) in the UK.

Huh, how interesting!
It's funny because I've always thought of naan as more famous among Westerners, at least in Australia.

Exactly, here, too. Chapatis are too authentically North Indian/Pakistani for me to expect non-South Asians to be familiar with them. :P

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Car » 2017-04-03, 12:41

Prowler wrote:Did he give you any examples? Did people harass him on the streets or something? It just seems kind of odd since Spain and Italy get lots of tourists and also have lots of immigration. Surely they're used to people from other parts of the globe by now?

And football hooliganism has historically been a problem in the Old Continent and also Latin America, so I don't see why Spain and Italy are being singled out. I'd say hooliganism at its worst is worse in countries like Greece, Turkey, Poland and Greece.

No, he didn't, he just made general statements about it when racism in football in those countries came up. He mentioned a couple of times that when he first attended a Borussia Dortmund match in 1993, he ended up next to some neo nazis who thought he was an African aslyum seeker and wanted to attack him (fortunately, some people got up to defend him), so I wonder if he was mistaken for one in Italy and Spain, too and that caused the problem?

Well, there's hooliganism and then there's racism, even though there's a big overlap between the two. If there were articles about racism in Western European football, it mainly was about Italy and Spain. Greece and Turkey don't get that much attention since their leagues are weaker and Eastern Europe is generally seen as worse in that respect anyway (and doesn't receive as much attention as Western Europe in general). The Italian FA did produce this incident, though: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ana-eaters That was seen as representative of the problems Italian football has with racism. I don't remember that many incidents with racism in the other three countries of the big five in the past two + decades, so I guess that's where it comes from.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-03, 16:23

vijayjohn wrote:
Prowler wrote:The funny thing about all of this is that many Europeans think Americans are very racist

I get your point, but I read this and thought, "That's because we are!" :P


I don't know if Americans are generally more racist than Europeans (in the sense of racism against all races), I mean racism is a problem over here too, in some countries more than in others. But we have a feeling that in the USA racism specifically against African Americans is a huge problem. As in, for historic reasons a deeply ingrained, structural, cultural problem, involving a lot of fear, as opposed to racism against Asians for example. At least this is the common conception over here.

I've never been there, so I can only tell what I've seen on TV, read in newspapers etc., but when we hear news about American police killing unarmed black people again, most people are shocked (although I believe Americans are shocked too when reading about burning refugee homes in Germany). There's a lot of sympathy for the Black Lives Matter movement actually.

Further than that I can share only one anecdote of my father's wife who visited relatives in the USA and confirmed it. Allegedly, they've been at a gas station and she went to a black man to ask him for directions, and when she came back, her relative was white as chalk and told her to never do that again. Again, this is only one anecdote, but it's in line with how we view anti-black racism in the USA.

edit: one thing I've heard African American girls and women say very often on the internet is that they're told "you're beautiful for a black girl". I found that hard to believe because it's such an insulting thing to say in a so-called compliment, but it's a huge lot that claims to have been told that.

I'm always happy to hear comments on this to get a better picture.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Varislintu » 2017-04-03, 18:03

Babbsagg wrote:edit: one thing I've heard African American girls and women say very often on the internet is that they're told "you're beautiful for a black girl". I found that hard to believe because it's such an insulting thing to say in a so-called compliment, but it's a huge lot that claims to have been told that.


Yeah, it was pretty late that I learned the term "misogynoir", but after following a blog about that topic for a couple of years, it really opened my eyes up to how pervasive it is. And often people are somehow unaware that their misogynoir is real, so they are very open/unhesitant in expressing it, like in comments like the one you mention.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-03, 18:05

Babbsagg wrote:edit: one thing I've heard African American girls and women say very often on the internet is that they're told "you're beautiful for a black girl". I found that hard to believe because it's such an insulting thing to say in a so-called compliment, but it's a huge lot that claims to have been told that.

Believe it. People really are this rude, even in face-to-face interactions.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-03, 19:54

It always appeared to me that the American media loves to talk about race and racism. And American tv shows and movies always seem to have a joke or two or an episode or two about race and racism, even if it's a comedy. Like does anyone remember that Seinfeld episode where George tells this black man he looks like Sammy Davis Jr. and then he says "I guess we all look alike to you don't we mister Costanza?"... and then he becomes obsessed with getting a black friend lol

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-04-03, 20:05

linguoboy wrote:
Babbsagg wrote:edit: one thing I've heard African American girls and women say very often on the internet is that they're told "you're beautiful for a black girl". I found that hard to believe because it's such an insulting thing to say in a so-called compliment, but it's a huge lot that claims to have been told that.

Believe it. People really are this rude, even in face-to-face interactions.

The sad thing (apart from the rudeness and racism*) is that some people who give such compliments don't even realise they're rude and racist, but genuinely believe they're give a real compliment.

*Substitute "beautiful for a black girl" with "beautiful for a lesbian/trans woman", "handy/smart/knowledgeable for a woman", "intelligent for someone in a wheelchair", "trustworthy for someone from [poor area]", etc.; and racism for ableism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, classism, etc. if applicable.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-03, 20:13

And that's the thing I find really outrageous, that they're unaware that they're brutally insulting. Just taking for granted that black people are ugly. Not even having the decency to refrain from saying that face-to-face. Excuse my language, but everyone who says that is a fucking cunt
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-04-04, 1:18

Babbsagg wrote:But we have a feeling that in the USA racism specifically against African Americans is a huge problem. As in, for historic reasons a deeply ingrained, structural, cultural problem, involving a lot of fear, as opposed to racism against Asians for example. At least this is the common conception over here.

It is indeed a huge problem here in the US, though it is also consistently downplayed here.
I believe Americans are shocked too when reading about burning refugee homes in Germany

Maybe. I'm not sure I personally find this shocking per se, just awful and maddeningly frustrating. (That's not to say that racism in the US isn't just as bad, though).
Further than that I can share only one anecdote of my father's wife who visited relatives in the USA and confirmed it. Allegedly, they've been at a gas station and she went to a black man to ask him for directions, and when she came back, her relative was white as chalk and told her to never do that again. Again, this is only one anecdote, but it's in line with how we view anti-black racism in the USA.

Wait, what? I'm confused by this story. Was there something wrong with asking a black man for directions? :hmm:
Varislintu wrote:Yeah, it was pretty late that I learned the term "misogynoir", but after following a blog about that topic for a couple of years, it really opened my eyes up to how pervasive it is.

I didn't know this term until now, but its meaning looks pretty intuitive to me.
Prowler wrote:It always appeared to me that the American media loves to talk about race and racism.

Again, it is a big issue here. It has repeatedly driven government policy, for example, and not in particularly subtle ways either. I really don't think there's any way to escape it, at least if you aren't white.
And American tv shows and movies always seem to have a joke or two or an episode or two about race and racism, even if it's a comedy. Like does anyone remember that Seinfeld episode where George tells this black man he looks like Sammy Davis Jr. and then he says "I guess we all look alike to you don't we mister Costanza?"... and then he becomes obsessed with getting a black friend lol

That episode sounds familiar, but actually, American TV shows and movies have been pretty slow to discuss racism because it used to not be considered suitable material for being discussed in an American sitcom before All in the Family helped change that in the 70s. Now, I think it's way too big of an issue to ignore.

I remember that my brother said that (American) sitcoms with main characters who were black always had one episode with a serious discussion about racism. The only specific examples of such shows that come to mind for me personally are Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and Family Matters, but neither of them seemed to hesitate to portray extreme racism.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-04, 7:51

All in Family was funny. Especially Archie Bunker's rants and arguments with the Meat head or wtv that guy's name was.

Fresh Prince... I used to watch that back in 5th-6th grade or so. it was fun but don't remember any episode dealing with racism except maybe that one where a member of the Banks family turns out to have a white fianceé and some of her relatives don't like that much.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-04, 12:36

vijayjohn wrote:
Babbsagg wrote:Further than that I can share only one anecdote of my father's wife who visited relatives in the USA and confirmed it. Allegedly, they've been at a gas station and she went to a black man to ask him for directions, and when she came back, her relative was white as chalk and told her to never do that again. Again, this is only one anecdote, but it's in line with how we view anti-black racism in the USA.

Wait, what? I'm confused by this story. Was there something wrong with asking a black man for directions? :hmm:

Apparently the person was very afraid of black people. Again just a single anecdote, I don't know how much that is to go by.

Prowler wrote:Fresh Prince... I used to watch that back in 5th-6th grade or so. it was fun but don't remember any episode dealing with racism except maybe that one where a member of the Banks family turns out to have a white fianceé and some of her relatives don't like that much.

Right off the bat I recall one early episode where Carlton and Will were arrested when driving car at night, under the suspicion they'd stolen it, without any evidence to back it up.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-04, 22:56

Ah I don't recall that episode. Then again it's been years since I've seen that show. But it's possible I've missed that one.

Btw, I keep hearing/reading that USA is a very segregated nation even nowadays. How so? OK I figure it's mostly black people who live in ghettos but what about the tons of black people who are of middle and upper middle class? Don't they live in the same neighbourhoods as white people?

And yes I know there's also Asian Americans(encompass way too many countries) and mixed raced latin Americans, but I have no idea where those fit in.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-05, 0:43

Prowler wrote:Btw, I keep hearing/reading that USA is a very segregated nation even nowadays. How so? OK I figure it's mostly black people who live in ghettos but what about the tons of black people who are of middle and upper middle class? Don't they live in the same neighbourhoods as white people?

Sometimes, but sometimes they live in their own neighbourhoods. For instance, View Park–Windsor Hills in LA County has a median income of $160,000. It's also 85% African-American in its demographics.

In big cities[*], segregation is often block-by-block or even building-by-building rather than by neighbourhood. So the South Side neighbourhood where I used to live, Hyde Park, is nominally well-integrated, with a population that is almost half White, 30% African American, and 12% Asian-American. But in fact the African-Americans are heavily concentrated along the northwestern and southern edges where it borders neighbourhoods that are overwhelmingly African-American. I even lived in the northwestern part of Hyde Park at one time and I don't think there was a single African-American in our building.

Moreover, there' are more dimensions to segregation than just housing. Now I live in another neighbourhood (Rogers Park) that's nominally well-integrated (about 40% White, 25% Black, and 25% Latinx of any race), but, once again, I live in one of the whitest parts of it. Even though there are Black families (mostly of Black African origin) on my block, we practically never interact. Outside of my own building, the only neighbours I socialise with regularly are a White gay couple living across the street. I am friendly with an African-American guy who lives across the alley but only when we run into each other, which is maybe once a month at most. He's complained to me that he's had little success getting to know the (mainly White) people who live in his building and he plans to move out.

And since most people get their jobs through being recommended by someone they know, social segregation gets replicated at work. My workplace is better-integrated than most, but the only POCs in my department of about 20 people are two Asian women and a Hispanic man. However, where it's really glaring is education. People tend to send their kids to schools near them, so schools reflect residential segregation, but the effect is magnified by the fact that White and Asian parents disproportionately choose private schools. So even though my neighbourhood is 40% non-Hispanic White, only 4% of the students at the local public high school are. And again, even when a school is nominally integrated, that doesn't mean that friendships form easily across racial boundaries.

[*] And not only do the majority of African-Americans--like the majority of Americans generally--live in big cities, but they cluster in specific big cities. Nearly one in ten African-Americans lives in either NYC or Chicago; only 1 in 40 non-Hispanic Whites does.

Prowler wrote:And yes I know there's also Asian Americans(encompass way too many countries) and mixed raced latin Americans, but I have no idea where those fit in.

Hispanics tend to be highly segregated as well, though not quite to the same degree as African-Americans. Since they tend to be poorer than non-Hispanic Whites, they're more likely to live in neighbourhoods with significant African-American populations (but, again, living near others and interacting with them are two different things). Asian-Americans, on the other hand, tend to have higher incomes than non-Hispanic Whites, so they're far more likely to live in neighbourhoods which are overwhelmingly White (with the caveat that there are significant differences between Asian-American groups, with those of Southeast Asian origin in particular being more likely to pattern like Hispanics).
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-04-05, 2:09

Aren't Asian Americans also very likely to live in neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly a mixture of white and Asian American? I think my entire neighborhood falls into one of those groups, although they include a pretty broad variety of both white people and Asian people. My understanding is that there are even some neighborhoods that are entirely Asian, but I don't recall actually seeing any off the top of my head and am not sure how common that is in the US as a whole.

I would say my schools and workplace have all been a bit more diverse than my neighborhood. I remember noticing in high school that there were definitely more people of Iranian origin I knew than I expected. My parents have made friends with all kinds of people, but when they throw a party, it's all Malayalee. (This is also true of the overwhelming majority of parties they go to). Within my generation, however, I'm not aware of any sort of ethnic favoritism among the people I know...except that my white co-worker likes to joke that she always has trouble remembering the names of our white co-workers. :lol:
Asian-Americans, on the other hand, tend to have higher incomes than non-Hispanic Whites

Ironically, this is exactly what has always my dad concerned for years since it could end up being a motive for discrimination against us.
Babbsagg wrote:Right off the bat I recall one early episode where Carlton and Will were arrested when driving car at night, under the suspicion they'd stolen it, without any evidence to back it up.

That's the one! First season, sixth episode, "Mistaken Identity," the one that has this clip (which seems to be a relatively well-known part of this episode):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CLhk6OrhQ
To be fair, though, I haven't watched it in years myself and forgot that the one where they tackle racism is different from the much more dramatic one where Wil saves Carlton from getting shot.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby TheStrayCat » 2017-04-05, 2:27

vijayjohn wrote:My understanding is that there are even some neighborhoods that are entirely Asian, but I don't recall actually seeing any off the top of my head and am not sure how common that is in the US as a whole.

This map is a good source. Chicago's Chinatown is a very visible red spot on the map (even though it's not that big compared to the predominantly Hispanic/African American areas to the south) as well as several places in New York (like Flushing). Los Angeles has some Asian-populated areas as well, but I'm not familiar at all with the layout of this city so I cannot say more than the map.

Also, don't forget about college campuses. :)


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