Discrimination

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vijayjohn
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-24, 17:05

linguoboy wrote:It's very much up to discretion of the officer whether they demand this.

Wait, you mean this is legal?

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-24, 17:14

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It's very much up to discretion of the officer whether they demand this.

Wait, you mean this is legal?

They can ask you to show them anything--your ID, your junk, the contents of your trunk. In most cases, you're not required to comply, but they're counting on your ignorance of the law and your fear of the consequences if you refuse.

Illinois is a "stop and identify" state. That means it's illegal to refuse to provide ID if police can show that they have "reasonable suspicion" that you have committed or are about to commit a crime. The standard here is going to be very much up to the interpretation of the local judge, and they're going to tend to side with police in most cases.

Things are different where you are, thanks in part to Brown v. Texas.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Johanna » 2017-03-24, 17:35

So in the US, the police can't stop you just to check that you aren't drunk, or simply that you are allowed to drive at all? :shock:

In Sweden, they can. But it's not a huge thing: you show your license, maybe take a breathalyzer test, and then if everything is as it should they apologize for the inconvenience and let you on your way, It takes less than 5 minutes and you never have to step out of your car.

If you're not from here, it's not a problem as long as you have all of your papers in order. Stuff like passport, visa, your drivers license from your home country... Or if you're from the Schengen area, your national ID card and your drivers license.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-24, 17:41

Johanna wrote:So in the US, the police can't stop you just to check that you aren't drunk, or simply that you are allowed to drive at all?

Sure they can. They just have to come up with some sort of plausible reason to cover their asses, which is super easy to do when you're driving. (A high school teacher of mine used to say you can't get in a car without breaking half-a-dozen traffic laws.) If they say you made an "unexpected lane change", then it's your word against theirs if you want to dispute this in court for some reason.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Johanna » 2017-03-24, 18:15

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:So in the US, the police can't stop you just to check that you aren't drunk, or simply that you are allowed to drive at all?

Sure they can. They just have to come up with some sort of plausible reason to cover their asses, which is super easy to do when you're driving. (A high school teacher of mine used to say you can't get in a car without breaking half-a-dozen traffic laws.) If they say you made an "unexpected lane change", then it's your word against theirs if you want to dispute this in court for some reason.

That's stupid, at least we let our police be up front about it.

Especially since an "unexpected lane change" here translates to "reckless driving", something that might be a felony. So using that as an excuse is way worse than no excuse at all. And yeah, keeping the roads clear from idiots who drive despite a lack of a license is already good enough for us.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-24, 20:24

Johanna wrote:Especially since an "unexpected lane change" here translates to "reckless driving", something that might be a felony. So using that as an excuse is way worse than no excuse at all. And yeah, keeping the roads clear from idiots who drive despite a lack of a license is already good enough for us.

No, "reckless driving" is "reckless driving". AFAIK, an unexpected lane change is not a chargeable offence, but even if it were, it doesn't meet the criteria for "reckless driving" ("willful or wanton disregard for the rights or safety of persons or property") in any jurisdiction I know of. It would be "careless driving" or "driving without due care an attention" at most, which is a misdemeanour punishable by fine.

The point is you can't legally check to see if someone if under the influence without having some reason to suspect they might be. But you can always find that reason without having to make up any chargeable offences. And we as a society tolerate this because the people it victimises are (to get back to the subject of the thread) disproportionately poor and non-White and the majority apparently don't feel any responsibility to protect them.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-02, 5:54

So I occasionally read about people's travelling experiences worldwide because I'm interested in the travel industry and such and I can't help but notice that, in the last few years, more people are more reluctant to travel abroad because they're afraid of being discriminated against. I can't help but notice that lots of Americans and Canadians, primarily those of African and Asian ancestry, seem to be afraid many people form European countries might be racist to them. Ofc, a lot of times people just watch/read the bad news and tend to get a negative view of a certain place, so that might influence them, but I guess in some cases you can see where they're coming from. Although I don't really like it when an American or a Canadian(less frequent however) assumes that people in any European country that isn't the UK, France or Germany have never seen an Asian or a Black person before or that we're gonna openly stare and point at them and be mean to them. Also, what's with Italy and Spain having a reputation for being "very racist"? Where does that even come from? I hope people don't base that on that CNN hooliganism in football video. I could see Russia or Poland or Hungary having a reputation for being racist but Spain and Italy? I can't just see it, but maybe I'm missing something here? This really is not my element as you can see. I've never been a big expert on these matters. :hmm:

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Car » 2017-04-02, 11:20

Prowler wrote:Also, what's with Italy and Spain having a reputation for being "very racist"? Where does that even come from? I hope people don't base that on that CNN hooliganism in football video. I could see Russia or Poland or Hungary having a reputation for being racist but Spain and Italy? I can't just see it, but maybe I'm missing something here? This really is not my element as you can see. I've never been a big expert on these matters. :hmm:

The racism in Italian and Spanish football might be one reason (I dunno which CNN video you mean, but it certainly came up in the international press often enough in the past), but a black American internet friend of mine once mentioned the problems he had with racism in both countries. He also said it was very different in Barcelona (but then added that "Catalonia isn't Spain. Sorry to my Catalan friends."). He mentioned about Italy that he doesn't want to go there again unless his job or his wife make him to.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-04-02, 13:02

Months ago I found this video, personally I think it's quite spot-on but I'm also consciouss of the fact that my opinion doesn't count much here since I don't belong to an ethnic group which is discriminated against in this country.

https://youtu.be/8ZeCFjlULYc

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-02, 20:50

Car wrote:
Prowler wrote:Also, what's with Italy and Spain having a reputation for being "very racist"? Where does that even come from? I hope people don't base that on that CNN hooliganism in football video. I could see Russia or Poland or Hungary having a reputation for being racist but Spain and Italy? I can't just see it, but maybe I'm missing something here? This really is not my element as you can see. I've never been a big expert on these matters. :hmm:

The racism in Italian and Spanish football might be one reason (I dunno which CNN video you mean, but it certainly came up in the international press often enough in the past), but a black American internet friend of mine once mentioned the problems he had with racism in both countries. He also said it was very different in Barcelona (but then added that "Catalonia isn't Spain. Sorry to my Catalan friends."). He mentioned about Italy that he doesn't want to go there again unless his job or his wife make him to.

Did he give you any examples? Did people harass him on the streets or something? It just seems kind of odd since Spain and Italy get lots of tourists and also have lots of immigration. Surely they're used to people from other parts of the globe by now?

And football hooliganism has historically been a problem in the Old Continent and also Latin America, so I don't see why Spain and Italy are being singled out. I'd say hooliganism at its worst is worse in countries like Greece, Turkey, Poland and Greece.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-02, 21:55

There's racism and xenophoby everywhere but I'm not sure if football hooliganism is representative. Some people become really combative there and mob mentality brings up the worst in people. "we're building a subway from Auschwitz to St. Pauli" was one of the chants against Hamburg football club St. Pauli, and that didn't even involve racism. It's pretty ugly over there and I'm not sure if that gives an accurate image of general racism/xenophoby in a given society. I'm always curious to hear experiences with everyday racism, I just don't think football stadiums are good examples.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-02, 22:08

Babbsagg wrote:There's racism and xenophoby everywhere but I'm not sure if football hooliganism is representative. Some people become really combative there and mob mentality brings up the worst in people. "we're building a subway from Auschwitz to St. Pauli" was one of the chants against Hamburg football club St. Pauli, and that didn't even involve racism. It's pretty ugly over there and I'm not sure if that gives an accurate image of general racism/xenophoby in a given society. I'm always curious to hear experiences with everyday racism, I just don't think football stadiums are good examples.

Yeah, I agree. Football can bring the worst out of people. So many times people will refer to certain players of opponent teams as racial slurs and such. I remember watching Portugal vs. USA at school in 2002 and some students yelling at the Tv whenever one of the black guys on the US team tackled one of our players "it's that black guy again. go back to the jungle!" and shit like that. I didn't know those classmates of mine very well but it could have just been kids being kids or their passion for football making them a bit irrational.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-02, 22:14

You know, we have sports rivalries here, too. We also have a lot of racism. But this sort of racist taunting at sports events is shocking to us.

Certain situations may "bring out the worst in people". But they can't bring out what wasn't already there.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-02, 22:31

linguoboy wrote:You know, we have sports rivalries here, too. We also have a lot of racism. But this sort of racist taunting at sports events is shocking to us.

Certain situations may "bring out the worst in people". But they can't bring out what wasn't already there.

Ofc you do. Every nation has sports and rivalries. :P

Maybe hat's because you guys don't seem to have "ultra groups", "firms", "claques" as we call them here... unless maybe in the MLS since... well it plays the sport we're discussing here. Anyway, maybe your sports rivalries are less tribal than our.

I think most sports enthusiasts will agree on football supporters having the worst of the worst fans. I guess that comes with the price of also having the craziest fans. Football is very tribal and football clubs were not born a corporations. Also, in Europe, many football clubs also branched out into other sports, meaning many football clubs also play basketball, handball, volleyball, etc. But they're primarily still football clubs and known for football.They were founded by a bunch of random guys 100 years ago or so and lots of them represent more than neighbourhoods and cities. In Scotland if you're protestant you'll support Rangers and if you're Catholic you'll support Celtic. Rangers did not allow Catholic players until 1990.

Here, politics and such don't really influence club choice but our rivalries can get heated too.

I know very ordinary people who, once they get in the stadium, they'll chant "FILHOS DA PUTA" at the opposing team and their fans... even if many of their friends and relatives support said team they're insulting. I know of a few cases of people who severed friendships due to football. And also people who'd never date/marry someone who supports the "evil rival" because "I don't trust someone who supports a team that cheats"... which yeah I know sounds stupid. I like football and all but am not that radical to that point.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-02, 22:46

linguoboy wrote:You know, we have sports rivalries here, too. We also have a lot of racism. But this sort of racist taunting at sports events is shocking to us.

Certain situations may "bring out the worst in people". But they can't bring out what wasn't already there.


It is shocking to us too actually. We like to believe we're civilised, but some people let out their worst at football matches. It's as if they thought they can let loose there what they can't elsewhere. Clearly the racism is there in the first place, it doesn't just magically appear in that moment.

But hooliganism is not a majority thing. I believe most who go to football matches are decent people. The hooligans chant that stuff, they throw bananas at black players, they throw toilet paper on the field for no reason but to disturb, they may shout things about gassing Jews, they fire new year rockets into the "opposing" crowd. It's ugly, but it's a shameful minority that attends football matches in search of violence. I believe "normal" fans are disturbed as anyone else by those c*nts. It's as if most of the time we're civilised, but in football matches some let out everything that's usually repressed.

In fact, today football clubs are penalised if their "fans" conduct misdeeds, hoping for some sort of self-control. I don't know if that works, I'm not really into any of this.

I'm curious about what it's like in the States though, with American Football. I've heard people say that on the field it's more violent than soccer, but the crowd is more peaceful. True?
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-02, 22:50

Open displays of racism isn't a common thing at stadiums here. Only some countries got bad press for that and I doubt it's something that happens in every single game, anyway.

England used to be the Mecca of hooliganism back in the 80s-90s but nowadays it's probably the safest place to watch a game at the stadium.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-02, 23:10

From what I hear over here, Polish and Russian hooligans are the most feared. It goes that while most other hooligans are so nice to let go of you once you're lying on the ground, Poles and especially Russians will kick in your face until you've lost all your teeth. I'm glad I've never had anything to do with that shit.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-04-03, 0:16

Babbsagg wrote:I'm curious about what it's like in the States though, with American Football. I've heard people say that on the field it's more violent than soccer, but the crowd is more peaceful. True?

I can't claim to know much about such things, but that sounds accurate, yes.

For the record, I am an Asian from the US, and I am indeed afraid that many people from various Eastern European countries might be racist to me (like Prowler said, "I could see Russia or Poland or Hungary having a reputation for being racist"), at least if I stayed in said countries too long or went to the wrong parts. I don't really expect anything to go wrong with a short visit, however (though perhaps this still can depend on which part of the country is involved; I have heard something along these lines about Russia and Romania in particular, from people who were from there in both cases). I'm not really aware of similarly racist trends elsewhere in Europe, so I wouldn't automatically suppose that a Western European country like Spain or Italy would involve the same sorts of problems.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Saim » 2017-04-03, 1:17

Here's the worst that I got from living 9 months in Poland:

-I was in Szklarska Poręba (Sudets) skiing and a dresiarz (a Polish chav, basically) yelled at me "chodź ciapaty, pij mleko" (come here "ciapaty", drink some milk).

-The building I was living in had 24/7 security. One of them was an alcoholic (you could smell alcohol on his breath at any given point). The alcoholic said that I "look like a Muhammad" when I told him I'm from Australia, and kept asking if my mum is my mum or actually my [white Catalan] friend's mum (my [white Serbian] mum came around when we were first looking for apartments), even though there was no reason why he'd be the other dude's mum. Looking back I should've complained to the building or something.

-I was "randomly" stopped for an ID check at Poznań's central station on a day I was going to take a train to Warsaw (If I recall correctly). I wasn't on any of the platforms, I was just going to the bathroom at that point (and the station is connected to a kebab place in the front and a huge shopping centre in the back). The cops were dicks about it too because I told them that I could show them my passport, but that it was in my bag at the kebab place, and they said "always carry your passport!".

That said, I don't think it's fair to generalise that to Eastern Europeans in general.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2017-04-03, 1:31

The funny thing about all of this is that many Europeans think Americans are very racist, just like many Americans think we're the very racist ones. So someone saying "country x is quite racist" really doesn't mean much. Plus a lot of times people will just grab one or two examples of one region and assume every other place in that area/part of the world applies as well.

And it's hard to put such things on a scale, anyway. Japan has a worse reputation for being xenophobic than most European countries do yet the odds of being a victim of a hate crime in Japan are probably a lot lower since it's one of the safest countries in the world.


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