Gender thread

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What is your gender identity?

Agender
2
4%
Aliagender
0
No votes
Ambigender
0
No votes
Androgyne
0
No votes
Bigender
0
No votes
Cis man
28
54%
Cis woman
6
12%
Demiboy
1
2%
Demigirl
1
2%
Demienby
0
No votes
Feminine-of-Center
2
4%
Genderfluid
0
No votes
Genderless
1
2%
Genderqueer
1
2%
Masculine-of-Center
0
No votes
Multigender
0
No votes
Neutrois
2
4%
Pangender
0
No votes
Polygender
0
No votes
Third gender
0
No votes
(Trans) feminine
2
4%
Trans man
0
No votes
(Trans) masculine
0
No votes
Trans woman
2
4%
Trigender
0
No votes
Other/not listed
4
8%
 
Total votes: 52

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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-17, 7:59

On the topic of being anti-labels, check out this Tumblr post that sums it up better than I could:

http://asexualadvice.tumblr.com/post/11 ... n-the-past

@mōdgethanc: I don't know of any difference meaning between agender and genderless, just a matter of preference.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-05-17, 8:42

Lauren wrote:On the topic of being anti-labels, check out this Tumblr post that sums it up better than I could:

http://asexualadvice.tumblr.com/post/11 ... n-the-past

That implies that people just don't want to talk about it, but in my opinion you'd have much longer conversation and more understanding, if you just described how you feel, instead of trying to find a one word definition for it, which doesn't really exactly apply to you.

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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-17, 16:26

Sol Invictus wrote:
Lauren wrote:On the topic of being anti-labels, check out this Tumblr post that sums it up better than I could:

http://asexualadvice.tumblr.com/post/11 ... n-the-past

That implies that people just don't want to talk about it, but in my opinion you'd have much longer conversation and more understanding, if you just described how you feel, instead of trying to find a one word definition for it, which doesn't really exactly apply to you.

Well that is what I do, so...
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lur » 2015-05-17, 16:32

I'm often uncomfortable if there are no "woman" options without further indications, but I'm openly trans at the same time. I guess it's either I get dysphoric or that I'm scared of the extreme mental gymnastics some people go to reinforce social segregation. I think the thing with the poll is that cis/trans are by themselves not genders, so it feels off, but I see the point of gathering data. (A way to better many polls about this would be to have it in two questions.)

I used to be NB. I guess it worked as a way to get over my internalized transmisogyny when I was already breaking down in general. It probably worked because it was the first time I encountered trans people I could identify somehow. Before, I had this very typical experience of "I'm not trans at all, how can I possibly see myself in those despictions [made by cis folks] of grotesque, scary people, hyperfeminine subhuman caricatures"? And before that, I just thought that these were perverted ideas of me, that no one should never find out, that I repressed like a bunch of other stuff. I was probably confused by heteronormativity and my attraction to women, though. And the comparison with transness didn't even cross my mind. Now I know this whole thing is extremely common among trans people in their teens and early twenties. I find myself nodding all the time when others tell me stories. It's been... odd.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-17, 16:43

What do you mean by "no 'woman' options without further indications"? I'm not sure. I didn't put cis/trans by themselves though, participation is purely optional, and I am very limited in what I can include in the poll. Like I said earlier, there are only 28 lines available and I can only make one poll per thread. And since everyone's gender experience is different, I couldn't possibly make every experience available in a forum poll. If you're experience isn't as early described by the labels in the poll, like mine and many others theoretically, you are encouraged to talk about it here in the comments.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lur » 2015-05-17, 16:48

No, no, it's ok, I'm represented, I didn't know you could only make one poll.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby md0 » 2015-05-17, 16:55

If I go by the Gender Wiki definition of demiguy, I think that's the closest match for me, other than identifying us queer.
demiguy can be used to describe someone assigned male at birth who feels but the barest association with that identification, though not a significant enough dissociation to create real physical discomfort or dysphoria

The language they use to give this definition though :?
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lur » 2015-05-17, 17:04

I pick woman, (and transfeminine for political reasons, it's useful).
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-05-17, 19:21

Lauren wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Lauren wrote:On the topic of being anti-labels, check out this Tumblr post that sums it up better than I could:

http://asexualadvice.tumblr.com/post/11 ... n-the-past

That implies that people just don't want to talk about it, but in my opinion you'd have much longer conversation and more understanding, if you just described how you feel, instead of trying to find a one word definition for it, which doesn't really exactly apply to you.

Well that is what I do, so...

I was just trying to explain why I feel that is the better option not to get confrontational. Implying that if I don't want people being labeled then I don't want to talk about it seemed judgmental

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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-17, 21:40

Sol Invictus wrote:
Lauren wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Lauren wrote:On the topic of being anti-labels, check out this Tumblr post that sums it up better than I could:

http://asexualadvice.tumblr.com/post/11 ... n-the-past

That implies that people just don't want to talk about it, but in my opinion you'd have much longer conversation and more understanding, if you just described how you feel, instead of trying to find a one word definition for it, which doesn't really exactly apply to you.

Well that is what I do, so...

I was just trying to explain why I feel that is the better option not to get confrontational. Implying that if I don't want people being labeled then I don't want to talk about it seemed judgmental

To be honest I meant from the second paragraph onwards (of the reply, not the whole thing). I should've said that when I posted the link.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Varislintu » 2015-05-18, 15:17

Cis woman. My experience of my own gender always matched my physical birth-sex. I didn't feel I was not a girl, or a diffuse gender, even though I perhaps sometimes behaved as if I "identified as a boy" when little (like, to an outside observer).

My beef was always with gender roles. From a really, really early age I felt a total disconnect to the way females were portrayed in the media I consumed*. I also noticed and experienced what felt like unjust assumptions about me based on me being female. I detected that "female" was something uncool to boys, and that a lot of things in my environment were set up to perpetuate and lock me into that category of "female uncool".

Because I couldn't identify interest-wise or behaviour-wise with the women and girls in the media I consumed (I wish Miyazaki movies had been a thing in 1980s Finland), I adopted a strategy of thinking of myself as mostly genderless but "wearing a male-character" when playing pretend. All the cool characters I could want to emulate and pretend to be in play were male. (He-Man, Turtles, Chip&Dale, Indiana Jones, etc.) I played them, but I knew I was wearing a character, because I knew I was female.

* At the risk of being boring, let me recount a memory I have. Every Saturday morning cartoons were shown on TV. They were pretty heavily gendered, at least the imported ones. The choice was basically between He-Man and its ilk, and My Little Pony and its ilk. I once voiced to my mom disgruntlement about how all the cool action cartoons were about boys, for boys. She suggested I compose a letter to the TV channel about it. So I sat down and started writing, "Dear Channel, have you forgotten about girls watching cartoons, too?" And in that moment I hit a wall because I realised that there were girl cartoons -- My Little Pony and its ilk. I remember how hard I struggled to understand my own thoughts -- if there were girl cartoons, how come I felt like girls were being ignored in the cartoon selection? I was too young to figure it out right then, but of course the answer was that all the girl cartoons were only for a certain type of girl, not the kind of girl that I was. There was nothing for girls not obsessed with brushing hair. And those kinds of girls are girls, too.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lur » 2015-05-18, 17:51

Trans women get a lot of shit on that front from all sides because no matter what you do, being "feminine", "masculine", or "in the middle", they tell you that you're doing something wrong. (Being told that you reinforce gender stereotypes by going femme but that everyone else, including men, should be able to go femme if they want, is really odd). After a while, you learn that it's not really about that, but that people are just uncomfortable with your existence, and tke it out by throwing a lot of aleatory shit at you, even if it's nonsense. [And then there's doctors acting like literal gender police.]

(Like when I came out of the closet to a friend, and she automatically replied "I don't know, I think people should just accept themselves the way they are..." And I thought: what the hell do you think I'm doing, telling you this confidence? Why do you suddenly deny me like that?)

On the topic of gender expression, I like this video of Tobi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQu_2hOannU
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-18, 19:01

Yep... About a year ago when I first started transitioning I had other trans women, who were very femme, saying things to me like "I just can't understand and relate to you because you don't like makeup and dresses and things. None of us have your experience." Paraphrased, but yeah.

I'm definitely not girly. In the past I was a bit, but when I tried wearing dresses and makeup it was just too much. I did that for awhile because it helped reaffirm to me that I was a woman, but I was trying to hard and doing something that wasn't really me. Currently I love presenting as "androgynous".

Last night I kind of jokingly said on the AVEN forum, an asexuality forum, that maybe I'm "greygender". :lol: Like, most of the time I feel agender, but maybe sometimes somewhat feminine. I'm honestly starting to like that word a lot, though. :D Genderfluid and demigirl don't really resonate with me, and I'm more agender than feminine so I don't want to say feminine of center. I also kind of like neutrois. I'm not sure how I'd label my gender, though. "Feminine neutrois" sounds weird. I could just stick with neutrois or greygender, though.

And I'm starting to think of myself as not trans but rather non-binary. I know they aren't mutually exclusive, but I don't feel like transgender describes me accurately anymore.


Also, I don't think I've ever met Tobi, but she's from Seattle I think and I know of her existence through (old) mutual friends! So that's something. :lol: Also she's really cute. c:
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Varislintu » 2015-05-18, 19:19

Lur wrote:Trans women get a lot of shit on that front from all sides because no matter what you do, being "feminine", "masculine", or "in the middle", they tell you that you're doing something wrong. (Being told that you reinforce gender stereotypes by going femme but that everyone else, including men, should be able to go femme if they want, is really odd). After a while, you learn that it's not really about that, but that people are just uncomfortable with your existence, and tke it out by throwing a lot of aleatory shit at you, even if it's nonsense. [And then there's doctors acting like literal gender police.]


I can imagine that. Heck, even cis women struggle with that. For example, I suddenly started liking skirts at around age 19. And shortly after, I discovered beading (making jewelry) as a hobby. The thought did cross my head -- has my subconsciousness crumbled under pressure and just conformed to the most obvious girly interests out there? Do I actually like this, or did it finally get hammered into me? Since there was no answer to be found, I decided to just stop overthinking it and embrace it.

Easy for me, but I can imagine the process is so much more complicated and unrewarding for trans people (because the environment won't let you win or walk away without playing).

Lauren wrote:Yep... About a year ago when I first started transitioning I had other trans women, who were very femme, saying things to me like "I just can't understand and relate to you because you don't like makeup and dresses and things. None of us have your experience." Paraphrased, but yeah.


Argh. :o We have a long way to go as a society, don't we?
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-05-18, 20:06

Varislintu wrote:My beef was always with gender roles. From a really, really early age I felt a total disconnect to the way females were portrayed in the media I consumed*. I also noticed and experienced what felt like unjust assumptions about me based on me being female. I detected that "female" was something uncool to boys, and that a lot of things in my environment were set up to perpetuate and lock me into that category of "female uncool".

Because I couldn't identify interest-wise or behaviour-wise with the women and girls in the media I consumed (I wish Miyazaki movies had been a thing in 1980s Finland), I adopted a strategy of thinking of myself as mostly genderless but "wearing a male-character" when playing pretend. All the cool characters I could want to emulate and pretend to be in play were male.

This illustrates what I was trying to say before - gender is not a pre-existing condition the way sex is, it's just a set of rules we are taught from early age and personally I don't want to play by those rules. You have found a role you'd like to play by in this world? Well, good for you, but it shouldn't mean you get to tell other people to pick certain rules by saying that they should wear a skirt and such.

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Re: Gender thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-05-18, 20:16

This illustrates what I was trying to say before - gender is not a pre-existing condition the way sex is, it's just a set of rules we are taught from early age and personally I don't want to play by those rules.
No, that's a gender role. Gender is an identity. How much of it is determined before birth is, as I was saying in the sexuality thread, unclear but it's more than just socialization and definitely more than just an act. "Performing" a different gender (eg. the way a drag queen/king would) does not change what your gender identity is.

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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-18, 20:20

mōdgethanc wrote:
This illustrates what I was trying to say before - gender is not a pre-existing condition the way sex is, it's just a set of rules we are taught from early age and personally I don't want to play by those rules.
No, that's a gender role. Gender is an identity. How much of it is determined before birth is, as I was saying in the sexuality thread, unclear but it's more than just socialization and definitely more than just an act. "Performing" a different gender (eg. the way a drag queen/king would) does not change what your gender identity is.

What makes you think that gender has a base in biology? I'm curious.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-05-18, 20:45

mōdgethanc wrote:
This illustrates what I was trying to say before - gender is not a pre-existing condition the way sex is, it's just a set of rules we are taught from early age and personally I don't want to play by those rules.
No, that's a gender role. Gender is an identity. How much of it is determined before birth is, as I was saying in the sexuality thread, unclear but it's more than just socialization and definitely more than just an act. "Performing" a different gender (eg. the way a drag queen/king would) does not change what your gender identity is.


But if you slap a label on what you think you are then you're just creating another set of rules you expect other people to obey, if they want to be anything like you. Drag queen and such is a role in another sense, it's a theatrical act, it's when a person who takes a set of rules they don't live by and enacts them for fun

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Re: Gender thread

Postby Lauren » 2015-05-18, 20:57

Sol Invictus wrote:But if you slap a label on what you think you are then you're just creating another set of rules you expect other people to obey, if they want to be anything like you.

That's definitely not true. For example, people that use the label neutrois can be very different. Have a look at this:

http://neutrois.com/what-is-neutrois/

People that call themselves gay or asexual or lithromantic or other orientation labels can be very different too. Some asexual people, like me, can enjoy sex and masturbation, and some asexual people don't want sex at all, some even are averse to masturbating. Yet, all these people are valid in using the label asexual. The point of labels is a for belonging and affirmation, not creating strict catergories.
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Re: Gender thread

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-05-18, 22:21

Okay, maybe I should have said aspects of who you are, not who you are. With any identity there is something that sets it apart from all other identities, that's the rule you need to accept to be part of the group.

Take your own experience here:
Lauren wrote:I had other trans women, who were very femme, saying things to me like "I just can't understand and relate to you because you don't like makeup and dresses and things. None of us have your experience." Paraphrased, but yeah.

I'm definitely not girly. In the past I was a bit, but when I tried wearing dresses and makeup it was just too much. I did that for awhile because it helped reaffirm to me that I was a woman, but I was trying to hard and doing something that wasn't really me. Currently I love presenting as "androgynous".

Last night I kind of jokingly said on the AVEN forum, an asexuality forum, that maybe I'm "greygender". :lol: Like, most of the time I feel agender, but maybe sometimes somewhat feminine. I'm honestly starting to like that word a lot, though. :D Genderfluid and demigirl don't really resonate with me, and I'm more agender than feminine so I don't want to say feminine of center. I also kind of like neutrois. I'm not sure how I'd label my gender, though. "Feminine neutrois" sounds weird. I could just stick with neutrois or greygender, though.

And I'm starting to think of myself as not trans but rather non-binary. I know they aren't mutually exclusive, but I don't feel like transgender describes me accurately anymore.


So you thought you belong with certain group. Members of that group advised you that they feel you don't share their experience, because you don't follow the skirts and make-up rule of their group. You are now reconsidering what your identity is. I'm sorry, if I am wrong, but it sounds like adopting that label didn't make you feel like you belong, it served the members of the group to underscore who they are and why you do not fit in.


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