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Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-04, 21:21
by razlem
Yasna wrote:masculinity/femininity only express tendencies of features

Nooooo

Don't confuse this social binary with genetic phenotype. It's difficult for westerners because our binary system overlaps with the common XX/XY phenotypes. How would you explain this to a member of the Choctaw community, whose culture recognizes 4 distinct genders?

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-04, 22:01
by Yasna
razlem wrote:Nooooo

Don't confuse this social binary with genetic phenotype. It's difficult for westerners because our binary system overlaps with the common XX/XY phenotypes. How would you explain this to a member of the Choctaw community, whose culture recognizes 4 distinct genders?

Before I respond, I'd like to learn more about the Choctaw situation, but I can't find any information on it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-05, 0:35
by razlem
Yasna wrote:
razlem wrote:Nooooo

Don't confuse this social binary with genetic phenotype. It's difficult for westerners because our binary system overlaps with the common XX/XY phenotypes. How would you explain this to a member of the Choctaw community, whose culture recognizes 4 distinct genders?

Before I respond, I'd like to learn more about the Choctaw situation, but I can't find any information on it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Unfortunately there's not much online as far as Choctaw, but the Navajo have a similar deal: http://jezebel.com/5812179/the-navajo-c ... nt-genders

And some other stuff
http://othersociologist.com/2013/09/09/ ... it-people/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-05, 0:42
by Koko
Unfortunately also two spirit people have been forced out of the Native cultures since colonization by the Europeans, as they were seen as "perverted." But apparently they're slowly making a come-back with the rise and regrowth of the suppressed Native cultures.

(read this via the link on two spirit found in Lauren's link on the first post)

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-05, 0:57
by Sol Invictus
razlem wrote:
Yasna wrote:
razlem wrote:Nooooo

Don't confuse this social binary with genetic phenotype. It's difficult for westerners because our binary system overlaps with the common XX/XY phenotypes. How would you explain this to a member of the Choctaw community, whose culture recognizes 4 distinct genders?

Before I respond, I'd like to learn more about the Choctaw situation, but I can't find any information on it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Unfortunately there's not much online as far as Choctaw, but the Navajo have a similar deal: http://jezebel.com/5812179/the-navajo-c ... nt-genders

And some other stuff
http://othersociologist.com/2013/09/09/ ... it-people/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

Doesn't Navajo system have three, not four, genders or are two-spirit male and two-spirit female different genders?

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 2:38
by mōdgethanc
Sol Invictus wrote:Why do you keep insisting that, if person has no strong gender identity and doesn't like gender roles, they must still pick gender based on their sex?
What the fuck? When did I ever say that? I didn't.

A person's gender identity (or in other words, just their gender) is separate from their sex. Gender roles are socially imposed on people and do not always fit their gender. Likewise, sex is a totally different thing from gender. Usually someone's sex and gender match, more or less, but not always. Therefore your claim that I "keep insisting [others] must still pick gender based on their sex" is a strawman and really dumb. Stop doing it.

For one thing, nobody has to pick a gender in the first place. I would argue that much like sexual orientation, gender picks you.
Lur wrote:ve noticed some cis people switch quickly to talk about gender roles when their cisness comes up, but trans people initially avoid the topic. (At least the adults, trans children live a different situation.)
That's weird. I wouldn't do that.
razlem wrote:Why is it important to have a gender identity? I'm not sure I understand how it benefits anyone.
Why is it important to have a sexual orientation? Or a racial identity? Or a cultural one?

My gender doesn't affect how I live my life that much, because I don't care very much if others perceive me as fitting the masculine gender role. The vast majority of the time I do, but if I like something that's stereotypically feminine then I don't care. It's just a feeling that I have: I am a man and always have been. If I didn't have a gender at all then it wouldn't change my behaviour much either, but it would feel different. This is something that's hard to quantify; you just know your gender in the same way you know you're a cat person or you enjoy potato chips.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 3:32
by razlem
Sol Invictus wrote:Doesn't Navajo system have three, not four, genders or are two-spirit male and two-spirit female different genders?

There's a term for two-spirit male and another term for two-spirit female. I can't say much more about their philosophical perception of a gender binary; whether the term "two-spirit" was borrowed from/adapted for Europeans.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 3:37
by razlem
mōdgethanc wrote:Why is it important to have a sexual orientation? Or a racial identity? Or a cultural one?

Honestly I don't see the importance in aligning oneself with a random group of people. It seems to only lead to conflict. It's never (pardon the pun) black or white. The entire world is gray yet people seem to revel in their absolute categorizations of the human race.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 4:29
by mōdgethanc
razlem wrote:Honestly I don't see the importance in aligning oneself with a random group of people. It seems to only lead to conflict. It's never (pardon the pun) black or white. The entire world is gray yet people seem to revel in their absolute categorizations of the human race.
Maybe you don't but for a lot of people it is important and they derive some sense of identity and belonging from it, so just respect that.

In fact maybe comparing gender to culture isn't appropriate. I think sexual orientation is a better comparison. For that I don't need any justification other than that I feel like a man (just as I feel straight) and I like being that way. It feels right to me. Why should that bother you? I'm not bothered by your gender being different from mine.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 4:41
by Tenebrarum
razlem wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Why is it important to have a sexual orientation? Or a racial identity? Or a cultural one?

Honestly I don't see the importance in aligning oneself with a random group of people. It seems to only lead to conflict.

I guess you've never been in a position where you have to do that. Sometimes a common characteristic unites an otherwise "random" group of people, and if the rest of society uses that characteristic as a reason to figuratively or literally spit on you, you have to forge a shared identity in order to put up an effective fight. Sexual orientation and gender identity are just two examples.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 5:34
by razlem
mōdgethanc wrote:Why should that bother you?

Never said it bothered me. Everyone's free to be themselves. I just don't understand the importance.

I guess you've never been in a position where you have to do that.

What is with people assuming what experiences I've had?

I'm not going to entertain individuals who discriminate. If they've made a discriminatory generalization about a characteristic I have, they're not going to listen to people who share that characteristic. You can't change people's minds by fighting with them.

you have to forge a shared identity in order to put up an effective fight

See? It's all about conflict.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 5:57
by Tenebrarum
razlem wrote:
you have to forge a shared identity in order to put up an effective fight

See? It's all about conflict.

What's in our lives that is not about conflict?

You can't change people's minds by fighting with them.

Actually you can't change people's minds at all, no matter what you do. Not on these deep, important questions in life. They think what they think and they believe what they believe, and if they do change their minds, it's usually because of a traumatic event that happens to them. You need to look out for yourself and band up with people in the same boat with you. At least that's how it is with adults. You might have a shot at educating children though, for their minds are still pliable.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 6:11
by razlem
They think what they think and they believe what they believe, and if they do change their minds, it's usually because of a traumatic event that happens to them.

Or swallowing your pride and realizing you have to do what's best, even if it's not easy or convenient.

I will not expend my energy and productivity banding together to fight people who will not listen.

Edit: Do not confuse this with complacency. There are more effective methods of subversion than brute force.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 6:18
by Sol Invictus
mōdgethanc wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:Why do you keep insisting that, if person has no strong gender identity and doesn't like gender roles, they must still pick gender based on their sex?
What the fuck? When did I ever say that? I didn't.

I already explained what the issue is several pages ago, I was talking about general attitude in the thread, not you specifically

mōdgethanc wrote:
razlem wrote:Honestly I don't see the importance in aligning oneself with a random group of people. It seems to only lead to conflict. It's never (pardon the pun) black or white. The entire world is gray yet people seem to revel in their absolute categorizations of the human race.
Maybe you don't but for a lot of people it is important and they derive some sense of identity and belonging from it, so just respect that.

In fact maybe comparing gender to culture isn't appropriate. I think sexual orientation is a better comparison. For that I don't need any justification other than that I feel like a man (just as I feel straight) and I like being that way. It feels right to me. Why should that bother you? I'm not bothered by your gender being different from mine.


Gender is a cultural thing, people can't choose who to fall in love with, but they can choose to think (or not to think) people need to be treated differently based on how they look and things they do and if they need to pack it all under some label.

Tenebrarum wrote:
razlem wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Why is it important to have a sexual orientation? Or a racial identity? Or a cultural one?

Honestly I don't see the importance in aligning oneself with a random group of people. It seems to only lead to conflict.

I guess you've never been in a position where you have to do that. Sometimes a common characteristic unites an otherwise "random" group of people, and if the rest of society uses that characteristic as a reason to figuratively or literally spit on you, you have to forge a shared identity in order to put up an effective fight. Sexual orientation and gender identity are just two examples.


People find common ground based on lot of things, doesn't mean they need to apply it to everyone else. You wouldn't find it normal that, for example, a group of friends sharing a hobby would insist that all other people in world have their own hobbies and that makes them different from everyone else, would you?

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 6:59
by Tenebrarum
razlem wrote:
They think what they think and they believe what they believe, and if they do change their minds, it's usually because of a traumatic event that happens to them.

Or swallowing your pride and realizing you have to do what's best, even if it's not easy or convenient.

Good luck waiting for them to do so. Chances are they're not capable of that in the first place.

I will not expend my energy and productivity banding together to fight people who will not listen.

Not even when they lobby the parliament to pass laws making your self expression illegal? I really want to see your do so alone, without banding up with other people.

The less challenging a person's life has been, the more idealistic their ideas tend to be. What I personally would do is to refrain from saying "I don't understand why people do X because I've never felt the need to do so." Maybe you just haven't been in the same place as they are. There's a lot of things I used to not understand and didn't have any need for, but I understand now and have a need for now, because of other things that happened to me.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 7:07
by razlem
Tenebrarum wrote:
I will not expend my energy and productivity banding together to fight people who will not listen.

Not even when they lobby the parliament to pass laws making your self expression illegal? I really want to see your do so alone, without banding up with other people.

But those people don't have to share the discriminated characteristics, they just have to be mature enough to not tolerate discrimination. You don't need to be trans to stand up against transphobia. You don't need to be black to recognize flaws in the American justice system, etc.

The less challenging a person's life has been, the more idealistic their ideas tend to be. Just saying.

Again with these assumptions that my life is a paradise.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 7:14
by razlem
"I don't understand why people do X because I've never felt the need to do so."

I never said that.

Tenebrarum wrote:Maybe you just haven't been in the same place as they are. There's a lot of things I used to not understand and didn't have any need for, but I understand now and have a need for now, because of other things that happened to me.

If you read through this thread, you'll see that I have in fact been in the situation before. To save you the trouble of searching, I'll say it again. I was fired last year for being non-binary. There's nothing banding together with only non-binary people would have done (not that that would've happened anyway because non-binary people get virtually zero social/legal recognition as it is), because it's a multi-billion dollar corporation that can dodge any legal fiasco.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 7:23
by Tenebrarum
razlem wrote:1) Again with these assumptions that my life is a paradise.
2) Less ad hominem please.

2) Not ad hominem. Check the definition.
1) That's why I said I "guess". Of course I don't know you, but from my experience, there's certain things you can faintly glean from a person's view on life and people. Just a hunch.

There's nothing banding together with people would have done (not that that would've happened anyway because non-binary people get virtually zero social/legal recognition), because it's a multi-billion dollar corporation that can dodge any legal fiasco.

I was fired under an even worse circumstance, in a communist paradise with a raw, lawless capitalistic economy and virtually no one to fight for workers. Sometimes alliance works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you have no allies in the first place. But it works out more often than not. That's why human beings tend to build a common indentity in the face of conflict. We're a social species.

Like I said, people believe what they believe. It's not like I'm paid to change your worldview.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 7:37
by razlem
Tenebrarum wrote:2) Not ad hominem. Check the definition.

Edited. Misread original.

But it works out more often than not. That's why human beings tend to build a common indentity in the face of conflict.

Yes, being in a large group is beneficial. But my point is that this group does not have to be homogenous. Aversion to discrimination is a fundamental human trait, not limited to just the oppressed.

Edit: maybe we should move this to the Discrimination thread to avoid going off topic.

Re: Gender thread

Posted: 2015-06-10, 7:43
by Sol Invictus
Tenebrarum wrote:Not even when they lobby the parliament to pass laws making your self expression illegal?

That is different - law is just one narrow issue, it does say something about society, but in this case it gender issues in general are a broader question. You are implying that not sharing this idea about belonging to certain gender being important automatically means supporting discrimination.