Aurinĭa wrote:Wait, doesn't AFAB apply to all people who were assigned female at birth? So not just trans men, like you talk about, but also cis women? I thought this what was Lauren was referring too.
CAFAB also refers to cis women, which is why I skip it to avoid confusion, because some people end up using these terms to lump trans women with men which is dangerous. She's probably referring to the idea that CAFAB people in general are safe from transmisogyny, and so can consciously or unconsciously recreate a hyerarchy against transfeminine people very easily.
Aurinĭa wrote:I have a question for everyone who wants to answer: how would you define gender identity? Several people here have said that gender identity is different from gender roles (and that both are different from biological sex).
Also, in an ideal world there wouldn't be any gender roles, but, as long as there are humans, there would still be biological sex. How would gender identity work in such a world?
The same way as now, just more freely.
And how do you see gender identity as working now?[/quote]
Sorry, I missed the question.
I'm not sure we can know how this works.
Here's a random list of what I've experienced, seen or read about:
-Some people have a very cisnormative understanding of how their body should be, and other people don't.
-People are often aware of themselves being men or women from a very young age.
-It sometimes changes, but almost never after your teens. Sometimes it comes to the surface during the reaction and the fallout to going through the wrong puberty. (The age I've seen cited as definitive is 16 years old, but I think that's due to laws of medical rights of the youth.)
-Cis people's understanding of their gender is often very similar or identical to trans people, apparently.
-Recognition of your own gender as NB can be harder if you aren't given a cultural framework for that. Likewise, heteronormativity, rules of gender presentation and gender roles confuse matters more.
-NB people might or might not have physical dysphoria.
-Innate self perception seems to effect processes of learning, self discovery, and socialization, For example, I have read tons of trans women tell the story of not learning to masturbate with a hand like men a imagined to do until very late (I didn't come up with that until I was 14, even thought I'd been touching myself since I was seven)
-Some people see themselves as always have been the same gender for as long they can remember, while other see it as having been different, or gone through a process of change.
-Social dysphoria affects back into physical dysphoria and viceversa.
-Social messages are often learnt according to gender identity and not what others expect you to be (this phenomenon seems to be a bit hard to understand for cis folk)
-Cis people often but not always have fears analogous or identical to dysphoria at the thought or possibility of becoming less cisnormative. (However a fraction of cis people, like among trans, expresses desires of being less cisnormative, despite the current social disadvantages.)
-Theoretically ender identity might have both an innate aspect and a leanrt aspect, often blended, the result being identical anyways.
-One doesn't seem to know your gender just by looking at your genitals. Intersex people born with unclear genitals do not necesarily see themselves as NB, as neither do intersex people whose situacion manifests itself during puberty.
-Intersex people whose gender has been decided externally do not necesarily agree with that gender just because they've been taught it or had inappropiate surgery for than when they were children.
-Attemps to raise boys surgically assigned as girls due to a condition I don't remember the name of, have generally failed. Despite what eveyrbody told them, the appearance of their genitals and the enforcement of feminine gender roles, the boys were perfectly aware of being boys.
-Gender dysphoria seems to be unresponsive to therapy, ansiolitics or antidepressants.
I saw a interesting blended definition of things once, but way too short and laconic to explain the intricacies: gender is phenotype + culture, sex is phenotype + genotype.
Geurea dena lapurtzen uzteagatik, geure izaerari uko egiteagatik.