Gender thread

[razlem]

You do not seem to have any knowledge or experience of how trans/NB people are treated in society. Otherwise you'd understand why our identities are important to us. Sure, in a utopia where everything is perfect no one would be hated for their gender and it wouldn't matter. But the fact in the real world is the opposite. Gender stereotypes and violence exist.

Have a read of this. It's very similar to the importance of gender identity.

Maybe you should stop assuming what people's experiences are, Lauren.

In fact I was fired last year because I was non-binary, and there's nothing I can do about it because non-binary people have a harder time getting acceptance than transmen and transwomen. Like you and most other people, y'all mistakenly think if I look like a prototypical male, then I must be a male.

[Lauren]

Then why do you say others' identities aren't important? And even yours? Also, I'm non-binary too.

[razlem]

Then why do you say others' identities aren't important? And even yours? Also, I'm non-binary too.

I said nothing of the sort. I asked why they were important.

[Aurinĭa]

I have a question for everyone who wants to answer: how would you define gender identity? Several people here have said that gender identity is different from gender roles (and that both are different from biological sex).
Also, in an ideal world there wouldn't be any gender roles, but, as long as there are humans, there would still be biological sex. How would gender identity work in such a world?

[razlem]

I have a question for everyone who wants to answer: how would you define gender identity? Several people here have said that gender identity is different from gender roles (and that both are different from biological sex).
Also, in an ideal world there wouldn't be any gender roles, but, as long as there are humans, there would still be biological sex. How would gender identity work in such a world?

Gender identity (which I personally use interchangeably with "gender") is how an individual sees themself according to the culture's distinctions of gender lines. In Western culture, it is binary gender system - man and woman. But in other cultures, such as some North American Native American communities of the Southeast, there were 4 culturally recognized genders. When someone identifies outside of the gender lines, they are labelled as deviants/mentally ill and are often met with hostility and violence.

Gender Expression is the external realization of the individual's gender identity (clothes, voice, etc). But it's important to remember that these are still culturally determined.

Gender roles are actions and behaviors that are culturally ascribed to a specific gender. They have usually been in place for a long period of time and become institutionalized in the culture. (If you see "male" or "female" checkboxes on job applications or forms, this is a remnant of the culture's beliefs about gender and serves no purpose but to discriminate - call them out for it)

Biological sex is what chromosomes you have. I refrain from using "male" and "female" because these terms entail culturally internalized gender roles. Your biological sex important in terms of sexual reproduction (whether you have a uterus or not), as well as knowing your predisposition to diseases (XX chromosome individuals have a greater chance to develop breast cancer, for example). There are only XX and XY human beings, which I would guess is why binary systems are more common.

This is why I question the benefit. Gender identity serves no role in biological function, and only seems to limit one's opportunities and cause social distress for all parties. It's like clinging to an archaic/obsolete system of classification.

[Lur]

If I am to take the idea of biological sex seriously then it can't only be chromosomes.

In fact I was fired last year because I was non-binary, and there's nothing I can do about it because non-binary people have a harder time getting acceptance than transmen and transwomen.

Out of what I've seen, the order of acceptance seems to be 1) Trans men, 2) NB transmasculine people and (at a distance) 3) Trans women and NB transfeminine people, both afected by transmisoginy.

Even queer/feminist spaces follow this hyerarchy in a surprisingly strict way. You can clearly see bi and lesbian cis women on top, and sometimes trans men, then the NB transmasculine folk, who often manage to be centered both in trans discussion and in feminist discussion, and then, sometimes, some of us the monsters dare to show up. Often they call the whole meeting transfeminist as a fad, even if there's no transfeminine person on sight or aren't even used to the idea of our presence. I've been lately getting blown away by how this repeats again and again and again.

Oh, and internalized femmephobia in those places, too. It's most hilarious that they reward being a man or a "masculine" presentation.

[Lauren]

There are only XX and XY human beings, which I would guess is why binary systems are more common.

That's not true. There are intersex people. XXY is possible, that I know. I haven't learned a lot on the topic so I can't speak much of it, though.

This is why I question the benefit. Gender identity serves no role in biological function, and only seems to limit one's opportunities and cause social distress for all parties. It's like clinging to an archaic/obsolete system of classification.

The point is that in the real world, today, right now, there are people that vehemently attack differences in gender. Because we trans/NB people don't fit society's molds, we are attacked for our gender identity. If we aren't attacked then we wouldn't have to fight back for acceptance and labeling ourselves wouldn't be as important, but we do have to fight back.

@Lur: You're totally right. That's why I sometimes feel resentful towards AFAB people.

[Lur]

@Lur: You're totally right. That's why I sometimes feel resentful towards AFAB people.

I can see why that would happen. Absence of transmisoginy, no forced desexualization, access to feminist space, access to male privileges, less amount of physical cues needed to be read as your gender (this is real, it's a patriarchy thing), it all can amount to quite a different experience. Well, all other circumstances being the same.

[razlem]

There are only XX and XY human beings, which I would guess is why binary systems are more common.

That's not true. There are intersex people. XXY is possible, that I know. I haven't learned a lot on the topic so I can't speak much of it, though.

My mistake, that is true. Though XXY and XYY chromosomal mutations are phenotypically the same as XY until puberty, as far as I can tell, which would mean that the culture's gender roles would've been taught to them by then.

This is why I question the benefit. Gender identity serves no role in biological function, and only seems to limit one's opportunities and cause social distress for all parties. It's like clinging to an archaic/obsolete system of classification.

The point is that in the real world, today, right now, there are people that vehemently attack differences in gender. Because we trans/NB people don't fit society's molds, we are attacked for our gender identity. If we aren't attacked then we wouldn't have to fight back for acceptance and labeling ourselves wouldn't be as important, but we do have to fight back.

So there's no purpose except for conflict? I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Even as a NB person.

[vijayjohn]

This is why I question the benefit. Gender identity serves no role in biological function, and only seems to limit one's opportunities and cause social distress for all parties. It's like clinging to an archaic/obsolete system of classification.

The point is that in the real world, today, right now, there are people that vehemently attack differences in gender. Because we trans/NB people don't fit society's molds, we are attacked for our gender identity. If we aren't attacked then we wouldn't have to fight back for acceptance and labeling ourselves wouldn't be as important, but we do have to fight back.

So there's no purpose except for conflict? I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Even as a NB person.

Maybe I'm wrong, but here's what I think Lauren's saying: Society attacks people who do not fit neatly into the gender binary regardless of how the victims of those attacks respond. That leaves only two options for trans/NB people: either do nothing in the face of attack and just let other people keep victimizing them, or fight back when other people do victimize them. So the purpose is not conflict but rather a response to attacks that continue to this day.

[Aurinĭa]

@Lur: You're totally right. That's why I sometimes feel resentful towards AFAB people.

I can see why that would happen. Absence of transmisoginy, no forced desexualization, access to feminist space, access to male privileges, less amount of physical cues needed to be read as your gender (this is real, it's a patriarchy thing), it all can amount to quite a different experience. Well, all other circumstances being the same.

Presence of (cis)misogyny, forced sexualisation, no access to male privileges, woe is the AFAB who doesn't clearly portray the physical cues expected of someone with that gender. And what are feminist spaces supposed to be?
[Note: I don't want to diminish anyone's experiences with transmisogyny etc.]

Lur, Lauren, you seem to be two of the people here with the strongest opinions about all things gender, would you mind answering my questions about gender identity?

[Lur]

Presence of (cis)misogyny, forced sexualisation, no access to male privileges, woe is the AFAB who doesn't clearly portray the physical cues expected of someone with that gender. And what are feminist spaces supposed to be?

We get regular misogyny too. Transmisogyny is like that but multiplied. Access to male privileges is common to all trans men, and transmasc people who don't look stereotypically male have a lot of shit, but not nearly as much as a woman who doesn't look stereotypically female.

As for sexualizacion, I don't know how it is for transmasc people, but we ourselves trapped between two extremes: either I am some sort of hypersexualized and sexualized sex goddess or some sort of hideous thing nobody wants to even see. It's hard to be a normal person. Trans men are often seen as cute or hot even if they're not cisnormative much, much more often than transfeminine people do, for example. And all transmasculine people, men or not, take center stage of everything much more easily than we do, which is what happens when you're not an unsettling monster-thing to people because you break the whole "being a man is better than being a woman".

I notice it's hard for many transmasc people to have this pointed out. But I often don't know how to speak about the sheer differences I observe.

Feminist spaces... I know two or three in this city. Some small organisations and such. And an occupied space turned into a social centre, which was recently raided by the police.

It also happens online. There's a known online feminist magazine here. Over time it's been mostly been written by cis women, and a bunch of men, cis and trans. I remember a rather transphobic article. The other day I saw for the first time ever one by a trans woman, which was a translation of a Tobi Hill-Meyer article about the exclusion of transfeminine people from queer porn. I was quite surprised.

Lur, Lauren, you seem to be two of the people here with the strongest opinions about all things gender, would you mind answering my questions about gender identity?

Okay, wait a second.

I have a question for everyone who wants to answer: how would you define gender identity? Several people here have said that gender identity is different from gender roles (and that both are different from biological sex).
Also, in an ideal world there wouldn't be any gender roles, but, as long as there are humans, there would still be biological sex. How would gender identity work in such a world?

The same way as now, just more freely.

Meaning for example trans youth would be much less easily constrained into assigned genders by using roles as a weapon. Right now, only a portion of trans children who are extremely stereotypical in the messages they've internalized manage to be heard, the rest are forced into pretending, or force themselves back due to fear. And that can last for quite a few years after that, which can be very damaging.

So one would be a man or a woman or NB, but without the bullshit. This would free a lot of transwomen of internalized transmisogyny too I suppose.

TErfs have an extremely twisted and sadistic view on this. For them, gender doesn't exist, and they call gender roles gender. They maintain there's a sex caste system, analogous to termites or ants, that cannot be changed. They believe trans women to want to force turn anyone "feminine" into a woman and anyone "masculine" into a man. Because they call gender roles "gender", they get to the conclusion that "gender must be destroyed", and call themselves "gender critical", which essentially means persecuting the fuck out of trans women while everybody else's genders are allright including theirs. They sometimes consider trans men "traitors", or sometimes "accept" them as "kinda women". And "terf" and "cis" are slurs, of course. And forced male socialization is some sort of magical source of self-confidence. And also, women have no agency and can't have it due to being in the female sex caste. And also fuck sex workers. It's nauseating.

[הענט]

Why is it important to have a gender identity? I'm not sure I understand how it benefits anyone.

For trans and NB people it is very important because we are uncomfortable with what cis people (try to) impose on us, and the verbal and physical violence we are subjected to often.

Not being trans/NB you obviously don't understand. Just like many white people don't understand why it's important to recognize race and why representation is important for people of color.

Well that's racist. You assume that all people of color think the same thing and live in their "special" groups. Seeing yourself as a black person, feeling the need to stick to your own only, leads to a segregation of a kind. Labeling a new gender that supports your very own perception of your gender is the same thing. I can't see how the division of the T genders stops the prejudice. Plus, like you said. Gender may be a very tricky thing and we can live to see thousands of new genders, because everyone is different, and this guy feels a little bit less feminine than the guy next door.

And this is a personal question, so you don't have to answer, but if you feel more agender/feminine, then why did you keep the reproductive organ of a male? I mean If I was agender, I would probably "cut it off" Varys style. Because penis is definitely a thing men have and if they use it for sexual activities, then they're at least 1% masculine.

[Aurinĭa]

Wait, doesn't AFAB apply to all people who were assigned female at birth? So not just trans men, like you talk about, but also cis women? I thought this what was Lauren was referring too.

Feminist spaces... I know two or three in this city. Some small organisations and such. And an occupied space turned into a social centre, which was recently raided by the police.

Never heard of such a thing. I don't think that exists here.

I have a question for everyone who wants to answer: how would you define gender identity? Several people here have said that gender identity is different from gender roles (and that both are different from biological sex).
Also, in an ideal world there wouldn't be any gender roles, but, as long as there are humans, there would still be biological sex. How would gender identity work in such a world?

The same way as now, just more freely.

And how do you see gender identity as working now?

[Lur]

Wait, doesn't AFAB apply to all people who were assigned female at birth? So not just trans men, like you talk about, but also cis women? I thought this what was Lauren was referring too.

CAFAB also refers to cis women, which is why I skip it to avoid confusion, because some people end up using these terms to lump trans women with men which is dangerous. She's probably referring to the idea that CAFAB people in general are safe from transmisogyny, and so can consciously or unconsciously recreate a hyerarchy against transfeminine people very easily.

I have a question for everyone who wants to answer: how would you define gender identity? Several people here have said that gender identity is different from gender roles (and that both are different from biological sex).
Also, in an ideal world there wouldn't be any gender roles, but, as long as there are humans, there would still be biological sex. How would gender identity work in such a world?

The same way as now, just more freely.

And how do you see gender identity as working now?[/quote]

Sorry, I missed the question.

I'm not sure we can know how this works.

Here's a random list of what I've experienced, seen or read about:
-Some people have a very cisnormative understanding of how their body should be, and other people don't.
-People are often aware of themselves being men or women from a very young age.
-It sometimes changes, but almost never after your teens. Sometimes it comes to the surface during the reaction and the fallout to going through the wrong puberty. (The age I've seen cited as definitive is 16 years old, but I think that's due to laws of medical rights of the youth.)
-Cis people's understanding of their gender is often very similar or identical to trans people, apparently.
-Recognition of your own gender as NB can be harder if you aren't given a cultural framework for that. Likewise, heteronormativity, rules of gender presentation and gender roles confuse matters more.
-NB people might or might not have physical dysphoria.
-Innate self perception seems to effect processes of learning, self discovery, and socialization, For example, I have read tons of trans women tell the story of not learning to masturbate with a hand like men a imagined to do until very late (I didn't come up with that until I was 14, even thought I'd been touching myself since I was seven)
-Some people see themselves as always have been the same gender for as long they can remember, while other see it as having been different, or gone through a process of change.
-Social dysphoria affects back into physical dysphoria and viceversa.
-Social messages are often learnt according to gender identity and not what others expect you to be (this phenomenon seems to be a bit hard to understand for cis folk)
-Cis people often but not always have fears analogous or identical to dysphoria at the thought or possibility of becoming less cisnormative. (However a fraction of cis people, like among trans, expresses desires of being less cisnormative, despite the current social disadvantages.)
-Theoretically ender identity might have both an innate aspect and a leanrt aspect, often blended, the result being identical anyways.
-One doesn't seem to know your gender just by looking at your genitals. Intersex people born with unclear genitals do not necesarily see themselves as NB, as neither do intersex people whose situacion manifests itself during puberty.
-Intersex people whose gender has been decided externally do not necesarily agree with that gender just because they've been taught it or had inappropiate surgery for than when they were children.
-Attemps to raise boys surgically assigned as girls due to a condition I don't remember the name of, have generally failed. Despite what eveyrbody told them, the appearance of their genitals and the enforcement of feminine gender roles, the boys were perfectly aware of being boys.
-Gender dysphoria seems to be unresponsive to therapy, ansiolitics or antidepressants.

I saw a interesting blended definition of things once, but way too short and laconic to explain the intricacies: gender is phenotype + culture, sex is phenotype + genotype.

[Aurinĭa]

Thanks for trying to explain, but I still feel like I don't "get it".

I saw a interesting blended definition of things once, but way too short and laconic to explain the intricacies: gender is phenotype + culture, sex is phenotype + genotype.

What is meant by phenotype here? Secondary sex characteristics? Secondary and tertiary sex characteristics? Aren't tertiary sex characteristics basically (part of) gender roles? Is gender identity influenced by the culture someone grows up in/lives in? Basically, I don't understand what the difference is between gender identity and (someone's reaction to) gender roles.

[Lur]

Thanks for trying to explain, but I still feel like I don't "get it".

I saw a interesting blended definition of things once, but way too short and laconic to explain the intricacies: gender is phenotype + culture, sex is phenotype + genotype.

What is meant by phenotype here? Secondary sex characteristics? Secondary and tertiary sex characteristics? Aren't tertiary sex characteristics basically (part of) gender roles? Is gender identity influenced by the culture someone grows up in/lives in? Basically, I don't understand what the difference is between gender identity and (someone's reaction to) gender roles.

First question. I think phenotype refers there to primary and all secondary sexual characteristics (which are a ton, but are also intermingled with your own genetics). Phenotype can't refer to gender roles, it's a body thing.

Second question. I think this can happen. If it can have an effect of massive self-repression then I suppose it can do the opposite too and give a push to someone in a specific circumstance.

Third question. Gender isn't necesarily a reaction to gender roles. You can see very butch or very femme and in between women, but they're all women. You probably react negatively or positively to gender roles depending on how much you've learnt their an inherent or an arbitrary social thing for your preexisting gender. Additionally one might prefer this or that and something might happen to fit anyways.

There's probably a lot of different stuff to answer the third question but the words don't come to me right now

When my mom was a kid she wanted to be a boy due to stuff about gender roles. While this can happen very much to a trans person, for example a trans woman who'd rather be a guy due to analogous reasons (like many cis women would), or a trans woman would feel out of place in a masculine role (like many cis women would), this a separate thing from what causes you to recognize yourself. It might give you a context, though. Or tools.

I like for me some parts of feminine gender presentations. I like letting my hair long, for example. I did this as a guy too.

[Yasna]

Masculinity has both a biological and a social component. The biological component is inherent masculinity. There is of course a large gray area (do males tend to inherently (biologically) have better leadership qualities, or are they just socially conditioned to be leaders?), but I do not see how the masculinity of the penis can be blamed on any social factors.

[razlem]

Masculinity has both a biological and a social component.

No, masculinity/femininity is entirely social. You can have women who have penises who express cultural femininity. And you can have men without penises who express cultural masculinity.

[Yasna]

No, masculinity/femininity is entirely social. You can have women who have penises who express cultural femininity. And you can have men without penises who express cultural masculinity.

Just because a woman possesses one feature of masculinity doesn't mean she can't express cultural femininity. That doesn't prove that masculinity is entirely social.

Remember, the concepts of masculinity/femininity only express tendencies of features, whether social or biological, to be present in biological males or females. An individual can unite in her/himself any combination of these features.