The Vatican vs. Turkey

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TeneReef
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby TeneReef » 2015-04-25, 21:38

I've heard the Armenian genocide was committed by the Kurds.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ole-in-it/
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-25, 22:12

TeneReef wrote:I've heard the Armenian genocide was committed by the Kurds.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ole-in-it/

Yes, in the same way that the Jewish Holocaust was "committed" by the Slavs. Did you make it as far as paragraph 5?
Demirtas added that “everybody, including the Kurds” was involved, but responsibility lies with those who gave the orders, meaning the Ottoman regime.
Hell, the title of the article is "Kurds Acknowledge the Armenian Genocide and Their Role In It".
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby TeneReef » 2015-04-26, 14:00

linguoboy wrote:
TeneReef wrote:I've heard the Armenian genocide was committed by the Kurds.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ole-in-it/

Yes, in the same way that the Jewish Holocaust was "committed" by the Slavs. Did you make it as far as paragraph 5?
Demirtas added that “everybody, including the Kurds” was involved, but responsibility lies with those who gave the orders, meaning the Ottoman regime.
Hell, the title of the article is "Kurds Acknowledge the Armenian Genocide and Their Role In It".


I've heard rumors Hitler was Jewish
but I've never heard he was a Slav as well.
You learn new things every day.

Armenians should stop whining.
They're not the only ones who suffered during the Ottoman times,
Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia suffered as well.
Read Ivo Andrić.
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linguoboy
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-26, 15:14

TeneReef wrote:I've heard rumors Hitler was Jewish
but I've never heard he was a Slav as well.
You learn new things every day.

*headdesk*

TeneReef wrote:Armenians should stop whining.
They're not the only ones who suffered during the Ottoman times,
Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia suffered as well.
Read Ivo Andrić.

Wow, so now calling for recognition and redress of war crimes is "whining"?

Calling for widespread recognition of the annihilation of the Armenian community in Turkey doesn't diminish the suffering others went through. By all means, they should call for acknowledgement of the wrongs they suffered as well. (But that's trickier, since then it opens the door to being required to acknowledge what they've done in turn.)

I really don't understand this kind of victim-blaming.
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Saim » 2015-04-26, 16:15

TeneReef wrote:Armenians should stop whining.
They're not the only ones who suffered during the Ottoman times,
Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia suffered as well.
Read Ivo Andrić.


At least we still exist. The same cannot be said for Western Armenia.

I don't understand this lack of empathy - if anything having a common historical opressor should strengthen it, not weaken it. :/

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-26, 16:48

You know who's to blame? Europeans! Had it not been for Western European meddling in the region, all of us Christians would have been free from the Ottomans already in the 19th Century. In the Crimean war France, the UK and Sardinia/Italy defeated the Russian army that was attacking the Ottomans and in the war of 1877 they've put so much diplomatic pressure on Russia that they stopped the offensive on Constantinople. In the peace process Russia was even forced to leave Erzerum that was eventually completely cleansed of Armenians. Not to mention Germany and Austria-Hungary that forced Russia/USSR to leave Western Armenia in 1918.

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-26, 23:06

Ludwig Whitby wrote:You know who's to blame? Europeans!

Isn't this like blaming the Holocaust on the victors of WWI? After all, if they hadn't've imposed those harsh conditions on Germany, etc. etc.

Call me crazy, but I always think the responsibility for a crime rests with the criminal who actually committed it. What this line of argumentation does is essentially deny the Ottomans any moral agency.
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-27, 13:12

linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:You know who's to blame? Europeans!

Isn't this like blaming the Holocaust on the victors of WWI? After all, if they hadn't've imposed those harsh conditions on Germany, etc. etc.

No, it's not. It would be like that if the victors of WWI had attacked any country that could prevent Germany from doing the Holocaust.
linguoboy wrote:Call me crazy, but I always think the responsibility for a crime rests with the criminal who actually committed it. What this line of argumentation does is essentially deny the Ottomans any moral agency.

Of course the Ottomans are to blame. But you can't let Europeans off the hook. They've not only passively enabled those crimes, but have even attacked the country that tried to prevent them.

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-04-27, 18:10

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:You know who's to blame? Europeans!

Isn't this like blaming the Holocaust on the victors of WWI? After all, if they hadn't've imposed those harsh conditions on Germany, etc. etc.

No, it's not. It would be like that if the victors of WWI had attacked any country that could prevent Germany from doing the Holocaust.

And how exactly would the success of the Russians have prevented the Armenian/Greek/Assyrian Genocide? The Allies won WWII. Did that stop a genocide with a much, much higher death toll from happening anyway?

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-28, 11:03

vijayjohn wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:You know who's to blame? Europeans!

Isn't this like blaming the Holocaust on the victors of WWI? After all, if they hadn't've imposed those harsh conditions on Germany, etc. etc.

No, it's not. It would be like that if the victors of WWI had attacked any country that could prevent Germany from doing the Holocaust.

And how exactly would the success of the Russians have prevented the Armenian/Greek/Assyrian Genocide? The Allies won WWII. Did that stop a genocide with a much, much higher death toll from happening anyway?


The war of 1877 saw Russia and their Orthodox allies (among others the Armenians) make gains in the war against the Ottomans, which was stopped by the Western powers that threatened to, once again, join the war on the side of the Ottomans. In the peace process the border between Russia and the Ottoman Empire was drawn up. The Armenians on the Russian side of that border are alive. The Armenians on the Ottoman side of the border are dead.

It's pretty straight-forward actually. Had Russia been allowed to conquer Western Armenia, the Armenians living there would'n't have been killed. Had Russia been allowed to continue its Balkan campaign and to conquer Constantinople, they would've been able to liberate other Christian peoples (including the Greeks and the Assyrians) from the Ottomans, preventing their future massacres.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 878%29.png

Just look at the map. The Ottomans were pretty much doomed already in 1877.

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Meera » 2015-04-28, 19:54

TeneReef wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
TeneReef wrote:I've heard the Armenian genocide was committed by the Kurds.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ole-in-it/

Yes, in the same way that the Jewish Holocaust was "committed" by the Slavs. Did you make it as far as paragraph 5?
Demirtas added that “everybody, including the Kurds” was involved, but responsibility lies with those who gave the orders, meaning the Ottoman regime.
Hell, the title of the article is "Kurds Acknowledge the Armenian Genocide and Their Role In It".


I've heard rumors Hitler was Jewish
but I've never heard he was a Slav as well.
You learn new things every day.

Armenians should stop whining.
They're not the only ones who suffered during the Ottoman times,
Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia suffered as well.
Read Ivo Andrić.


Armenians should stop whining? They were deported and mass murdered and no one recognizes it. They have a lot to "whine" about.
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Saim » 2015-04-29, 10:03

Ludwig Whitby wrote:It's pretty straight-forward actually. Had Russia been allowed to conquer Western Armenia, the Armenians living there would'n't have been killed.


Had Russia conquered Western Armenia, what's to say the Armenians wouldn't have pursued all-out independence and ultimately been deported or massacred under Stalin? In the same vein, we could also say that had France and Britain not "allowed" the Russians to annex Crimea, the Crimean Tatars would not have been deported and would've been safe under Turkish rule.

I don't think we can make moral judgements based on this kind of historical fiction. It's interesting as a thought experiment and in terms of analysis of the interconnectedness of empires, but when the issue is the recognition of genocide I don't see what it achieves.

Meera wrote:
TeneReef wrote:
I've heard rumors Hitler was Jewish
but I've never heard he was a Slav as well.
You learn new things every day.

Armenians should stop whining.
They're not the only ones who suffered during the Ottoman times,
Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia suffered as well.
Read Ivo Andrić.


Armenians should stop whining? They were deported and mass murdered and no one recognizes it. They have a lot to "whine" about.


You obviously haven't read Ivo Andrić, Meera! :lol:

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby TeneReef » 2015-05-06, 13:31

It's no use crying over spilled milk.
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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-06, 14:14

TeneReef wrote:It's no use crying over spilled milk.


a) Armenians did not spill the milk, they are more like the spilt milk.

b) What would it be of historical memory if every country did the same as Turkey with their unpleasant history chapters? For instance, Britain might as well start claiming that they never colonized other lands, they were just travelling and had to lay over in some places.

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Re: The Vatican vs. Turkey

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-05-06, 22:05

I can't shake the feeling that this is an attempt of the West to subdue Turkey. I mean, why didn't they put the same amount of pressure on Turkey in 1965? Because the Cold War was far from over and they needed Turkey to support them against USSR.

This may be a bargaining chip in the great diplomatic game: ''We'll continue to talk about the Armenian Genocide unless you submit to our demands.''

Turkey has acted on its own a couple of times, like the worsening relations with Israel, which is really not something that USA would approve of.


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