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Re: Homophobia

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-26, 19:17

linguoboy wrote:to be honest, I forgot there even was an option for including one's gender on one's posts

I thought there was only an option to do that on profiles, but it seems like now (after the downsizing/renewing of UniLang), the info on our profiles is included with our posts. I don't think that happened before that, so it used to not be the case that gender was included as well.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby Lauren » 2015-03-26, 19:23

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:to be honest, I forgot there even was an option for including one's gender on one's posts

I thought there was only an option to do that on profiles, but it seems like now (after the downsizing/renewing of UniLang), the info on our profiles is included with our posts. I don't think that happened before that, so it used to not be the case that gender was included as well.

Yeah, it changed after the reboot. I don't see why someone's gender is so important that it has to be put with every single post a user makes, but whatever...
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Re: Homophobia

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-26, 19:37

Lauren wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:to be honest, I forgot there even was an option for including one's gender on one's posts

I thought there was only an option to do that on profiles, but it seems like now (after the downsizing/renewing of UniLang), the info on our profiles is included with our posts. I don't think that happened before that, so it used to not be the case that gender was included as well.

Yeah, it changed after the reboot. I don't see why someone's gender is so important that it has to be put with every single post a user makes, but whatever...

I think it used to be only username + number of posts + date that you joined + location (including country if specified, but not flag) + contact (and then there was also a "view blogs" option). Now it seems like it's just everything that's on your profile minus the language list.

EDIT: As for misgendering hreru, Vlürch did the same thing at the very beginning of his post, too.

Also, I don't mean to complain, but I thought I'd repeat this just in case nobody saw it earlier or people forgot: meidei's last post here is still missing.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-26, 22:05

vijayjohn wrote:EDIT: As for misgendering hreru, Vlürch did the same thing at the very beginning of his post, too.
As a sadly departed coworker of mine liked to say, "Precedent is only the easiest way to go wrong."
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Re: Homophobia

Postby Johanna » 2015-03-26, 22:23

vijayjohn wrote:Also, I don't mean to complain, but I thought I'd repeat this just in case nobody saw it earlier or people forgot: meidei's last post here is still missing.

admin

Like I said, if a post went missing it's my fault and I take full responsibility. The problem is, it's not misplaced, it got deleted accidentally and I'm pretty sure it can't be recovered.

It happened because a few posts were about both topics so I couldn't do a simple split of the thread, I had to copy it in its entirety and and from each of the copies remove the things that were going into the other, either by editing posts or deleting them altogether depending on their content. And apparently I ticked at least one box too many somewhere along the way and that post got deleted in both copies and not just in one.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby Lauren » 2015-03-27, 8:05

This is transphobia and not homophobia, but I didn't want to make a whole new thread.

I just watched Whip It, which was great, except one part. One of the characters called the women on one of the roller derby teams "shemales". First off, the women are all assumed to be cisgender so that doesn't even make any fucking sense. Second off, why the fuck does whoever wrote that line of dialog think that's an appropriate word to use to insult someone?

Alright, yes, I know it's always funny to insult trans women in media, but I'm fucking tired of it. I was loving the movie till that was spoken, then I instantly felt a lot worse because of it. It's not fucking funny and it's disgusting that people think it is.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby hreru » 2015-03-27, 10:12

Deleted.
Last edited by hreru on 2015-03-29, 11:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby Varislintu » 2015-03-27, 13:14

I'm finding this discussion a bit hard to follow; I feel like I fell off the wagon already in the beginning because I didn't click and read what the Swedish man said. So take my reply with that grain of salt. But it feels like you guys are mostly agreeing, but just conceptualising it differently. Hreru conceptualises the issue as being on the personal level, and respect as respect. Linguoboy sees the social layer of it, and adds the concepts of microaggressions, minorities, majorities, oppression and how it works, and homophobia.

hreru wrote:Ive been brought up to respect everyone else as far as they do the same. My parents have somehow forgotten to inform me minorities are to be preferred. :evil:


It's all about regular introspection. "I've been doing things like this for all my life, how does it actually come across, what is it bringing to the world? Is it necessary?". You, hreru, I would say have the introspection part down -- I mean you already regularly do that, probably even too much as a result of your life experiences. But a lot of people simply don't. As I interpret it, linguoboy wants to make introspection around attitudes to homosexuals a more prevailent phenomenon in society. He'd like more people to examine their assumptions, as I'm sure most of us here would like.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-27, 15:19

Lauren wrote:This is transphobia and not homophobia, but I didn't want to make a whole new thread.

Yeah, I've been wondering whether we should make a new thread for transphobia. I'm not really sure because I don't think it should be ignored, but I can't even think of any active regular members of UniLang who are trans besides you tbh, so I'm concerned that making such a thread will make you feel compelled to answer any questions anybody has, which doesn't seem fair to me.

Speaking of transphobia, though, last night, I found out about a scandal that broke out a few months ago in India. A bit of a backstory here: There's a talk show in Tamil Nadu called Ippadikku Rose hosted by a trans woman named Rose Venkatesan. I found out about this show sometime back, probably sometime last year, but I'd never seen it before until last night when I finally decided to look for it on YouTube. The first result was Rose discussing her views on this scandal.

The subject of the scandal is this Tamil movie that came out around that time. Apparently, there are various points of the movie where trans women are depicted, most prominently the heroine's stylist, who later turns out to be one of five villains in the movie. Rose and many other trans women in Tamil Nadu were outraged by the movie's portrayal of trans people, including the choice to make the main trans character into a villain. I was curious about what exactly their issues with this movie were (I haven't seen the movie or anything) and found this open letter to the director by another Tamil trans activist, which I think explains it pretty clearly:

http://orinam.net/open-letter-to-director-shankar-eng/

(I'd post a few videos having to do with this, too, but they're all in Tamil. I don't have much time right now to attempt a translation or explanation of those videos, and my Tamil sucks anyway, so...). Just a comment on one of the slurs referenced in that letter: I think of the word for 'nine' in both Tamil and Malayalam as literally meaning something like 'one away from ten', but apparently in Tamil Nadu at least, it also has the connotation of 'defective ten'. See this interview with another Tamil transwoman named Milla.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-27, 16:49

hreru wrote:I'd like to ask you to reconsider the complaint about the hospital you're about to place.
Too late. But the complaint had nothing to do with homophobia anyway, it related to inadequate care. It's a pain and I'd rather not have to do it. But know why I did? Because this is a hospital which serves a heavily minority population. Most of their patients are immigrants, people of colour, poor, or all three. I'm White, native-born, well-off, well-educated, and well-spoken and so is my husband. I work at a progressive institution that not only allows me to put him on my healthcare but gives me as much time off as I need to care for him, so I was able to be there every day. I spoke to all of his caregivers, did research, and consulted with friends of mine in the medical field. The nurse practitioner called me a model patient advocate. Yet, in spite of all this, my husband nearly had to be readmitted because the hospital screwed up his discharge. If they do that to someone who is benefitting from just about every possible advantage that this society can bestow, then what the hell kind of care are they getting away with with poor uneducated minority patients?

That's why I feel like I have to say something. Not because it will benefit me or my husband--he's home, he's much better, with any luck it will be a long time before he's readmitted to that hospital, if at all. But I have a chance here to use my privilege and my personal strengths to help improve the situation for people who lack both. What kind of selfish dick would I have to be to let that opportunity go?

hreru wrote:Personal question, has my point of view on gays or the way I expressed myself irritated you? At this very moment I feel I'd apologise for even joining Unilang if it was wrong according to you.
You don't owe my an apology for anything. My irritation is my own reaction and I take full responsibility for it.

hreru wrote:(Back to neutral tone though I don't feel so now:) in which case I still don't get why my "How do they know they're gays when these don't show it?" exclude verbal communication. How is it different?
Because "show" always includes a visual component. I really don't know how many times I can regurgitate the example same definition at you.

Maybe we need to turn away from this dead-end tangent and return to what prompted it in the first place, which was this claim from you:
hreru wrote:Gays are hated for what they do, Jews just for being born as Jews regardless of their deeds.
My reply was:
linguoboy wrote:I don't think that's true at all. It's not like homophobes hate celibate gays any less than sexually- or romantically-active ones.
Do you disagree with my statement? Why or why not? If I tell someone I'm gay and they reply, "I don't like gays" how is that in any related to "what I do" rather than "what I am"?

hreru wrote:Edit: When Zerlmerlöw said something you found hurting and he apologised for it later, you seemed to agree with IpseDixit in his "an apology after having done something wrong is not enough in my book"
Where was this? I've reread the entire discussion and I can't find anywhere where I appear to be doing what you seem to think I was.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-27, 17:35

Varislintu wrote:Hreru conceptualises the issue as being on the personal level, and respect as respect. Linguoboy sees the social layer of it, and adds the concepts of microaggressions, minorities, majorities, oppression and how it works, and homophobia.
I think that's the crux of it. I was sorry to read your personal tale of being teased as a child, hreru. That sucks and no one should have to put up with it. But you know what? I was teased as a child, too, all through grade school and high school for reasons that had nothing to do with my homosexuality. And that's good, in a way, because if the abuse had gotten to be too much, I could've reported it. The schools might or might not have done anything about it, but at least they would've taken it seriously. Whereas if I'd been teased for being gay and I'd reported it, I would've been the one in trouble, not the bullies, because these were Catholic schools where open homosexuality was not allowed.

Do you see the difference there? People of all backgrounds get treated badly. They get teased, ignored, underserved, abused, harassed, even beaten and killed. But when this happens to a member of one of the dominant groups in society, they can expect on a degree of support and responsiveness that others cannot. This article gives some idea how this operates for LGBTQ people in a hospital setting. As the author says
But LGBT people have been so systematically discriminated against, misunderstood, and (at best) ignored within the health system that when we walk into a practitioner's office or a hospital room we don't assume that we're starting at neutral in the interaction, because we know better.
You, as a (presumably) heterosexual cisgendered White woman, may still be treated rudely or inadequately by health care professionals, but at least you start off on better footing with them than a lesbian or a transwoman would.

hreru wrote:I don't know exactly how it works in American hospitals so my question might be stupid
Which is precisely why I provided the background I did on HIPPA and Medical Power of Attorney (for all the good it did). Once again, health care workers can be fired for not complying with Federal law in these areas. "Close enough" is not sufficient; if they don't understand the legal issues involved, they are in the wrong job. It would be like working at a bank and not understanding the Federal regulations on customer privacy.

It took no fewer than three formal requests to get my husband's hospital records changed in order to have me listed as his legal spouse. At one point I was told it "couldn't be done". How many opposite-sex couples do you think have been told that? After we finally got that fixed, I still had nurses refer to me as his "partner" and had to formally request that they use the terms "husband" or "spouse". Again, how many cisgendered straight spouses have ever had to do that? What kind of impression do you think this sort of behaviour makes on you when you're in a setting where correctly identifying the relationship is literally a matter of life and death?

hreru wrote:No mumbling about fucked up faggots.
Really, is this how low you're willing to set the bar? So as long as you got through a hospital visit without anyone hissing "Crazy bitch!" at you under their breath, you'd have no complaints about the experience? Maybe I should also mention that they assumed he was HIV positive on the basis of zero evidence whatsoever and it took both me and his primary care physician reporting this mistake to get it changed? Nah, I guess it wouldn't change your mind. Your standards of "respect" and mine just don't seem to be within shouting distance of each other.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby Lauren » 2015-03-27, 19:53

vijayjohn wrote:I was curious about what exactly their issues with this movie were (I haven't seen the movie or anything) and found this open letter to the director by another Tamil trans activist, which I think explains it pretty clearly:

http://orinam.net/open-letter-to-director-shankar-eng/

Yep, that letter does a good job at explaining the huge problem with it. I haven't seen the movie myself, but from how that letter and the one linked at the bottom of it describe it, it falls into many stereotypes used to hurt trans women.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby hreru » 2015-03-27, 21:17

Linguoboy, in such a case I'm allright with the complaint indeed. I only recall you having complained about the approach, not the care.

So it's you who owed me an apology, I don't owe you anything. It's you who decides, not me. :roll: Of course I didn't mean it in the morning with apologies. 8-) Anyway, now I'm sorry exactly for the apologies paragraph.

linguoboy wrote:Do you disagree with my statement? Why or why not? If I tell someone I'm gay and they reply, "I don't like gays" how is that in any related to "what I do" rather than "what I am"?
Gays are seen as men who are not only being attracted by another men but who also sleep with them. Don't ask me for references, I haven't got any.

And yes, it is hard for me to imagine someone goes and introduces himself as a celibate gay to a stranger. Blame my poor imagination, I'd never do anything potentially dangerous in an unsafe environment if there was no reason, and I see no reason for stating this. And if they say this to people who've known them for long and respect them I don't suppose these people start to hate them just for that, though it's of course also possible.

Where was this? I've reread the entire discussion and I can't find anywhere where I appear to be doing what you seem to think I was.
Oh, TeneReef, not IpseDixit. I took the stolen bike quote as you agreeing.

We come from different environments. I can't say for sure but I think when I attended ground school you'd be in worse troubles being a Catholic than being a gay. I also can't say for sure but I think nowadays if someone was bullied for being a gay the school would take it seriously.

Sorry, but I can't get the big picture Varislintu and you mentioned. It's difficult for me to think about people in terms of groups they belong to. I mean, of course I do know what you talk about and of course I know there are differences among groups but I can't judge if you're right in the point of a dominant position. I know what you say about it is "what they say" and I know "others" say it's quite the contrary. I can't tell, I never could in similar issues and I'm not going to try. As I see it, people belong to many groups, socially, psychologically, some dominant, some not; and I'm not able to choose one of the groups and make any conclusions about its qualities. I'm going to go on on my small personal level because here I'm on a firm land.

I did read what you wrote about HIPPA the first time you wrote it but I still didn’t know how it works in practice. I imagined there might be a box somewhere in the records for the authority to make medical decisions for the patient to be filled in and it was simply filled in by "linguoboy" once you let them know you're married, the end of the story; and you only wanted to make sure by everyone around knowing. Are you aware what you've written in these latest posts about the hospital sounds very different? Before that I could only see you didn't like the staff not remember you for who you are.

Really, is this how low you're willing to set the bar?

Sure, how else. :wink: Once again, reread your first description of the hospital stay. I exaggerated on purpose to contrast what I considered understandable behaviour (and I also thought proper treatment) by the staff. I'm going to ignore your last two sentences.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-27, 21:30

Lauren wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I was curious about what exactly their issues with this movie were (I haven't seen the movie or anything) and found this open letter to the director by another Tamil trans activist, which I think explains it pretty clearly:

http://orinam.net/open-letter-to-director-shankar-eng/

Yep, that letter does a good job at explaining the huge problem with it. I haven't seen the movie myself, but from how that letter and the one linked at the bottom of it describe it, it falls into many stereotypes used to hurt trans women.

And then the one linked at the bottom of it includes a link to this article, which to me suggests that it's even worse than those letters describe it.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby Lauren » 2015-03-27, 21:43

vijayjohn wrote:
Lauren wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I was curious about what exactly their issues with this movie were (I haven't seen the movie or anything) and found this open letter to the director by another Tamil trans activist, which I think explains it pretty clearly:

http://orinam.net/open-letter-to-director-shankar-eng/

Yep, that letter does a good job at explaining the huge problem with it. I haven't seen the movie myself, but from how that letter and the one linked at the bottom of it describe it, it falls into many stereotypes used to hurt trans women.

And then the one linked at the bottom of it includes a link to this article, which to me suggests that it's even worse than those letters describe it.

Yep, people love to make fun of and denigrate trans people, especially trans women... Actually, and this is something you might not know, but trans men and non-binary AFAB (assigned female at birth) people have it better off than trans women and non-binary AMAB (assigned male at birth) people. The reason being? Misogyny. It's the same reason that girls being tomboys is mostly tolerated but boys doing stereotypically girly things are shunned and teased. Women doing manly things is seen as good, since men are the default in society and portrayed as superior, but men doing feminine things are seen as emasculated and weak and worthy of insult and even violence. Of course all trans people are likely to face discrimination just because we are different, but trans women are at the bottom of the food chain, especially trans women of color.
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Re: Homophobia

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-27, 22:06

hreru wrote:Gays are seen as men who are not only being attracted by another men but who also sleep with them. Don't ask me for references, I haven't got any.
And most gays do. But again, this is a red herring. If someone had attempted to gay-bash me during my years of gay celibacy (i.e. from the time I came out to myself to the first time I had sex) and I'd told them, "Hey wait, I'm gay but I don't have sex with men" do you honestly think they would have said, "Oh, sorry, we had no idea. On your way then." Persecution of gays is driven by our perceived characteristics; what we actually do is of little or not concern.

This is why I drew a comparison to Jews. Next time you meet an anti-Semite, ask them why they hate Jews. They will not tell you, "Because they're Jews!" They may even claim that some of their friends are Jews. What they will do give you an explanation of all the evil things that Jews are supposedly doing in the world. In both cases, they hate us for what we represent to them and then come up with reasons to justify that hate. It's irrational, and there's no excusing it.

hreru wrote:And yes, it is hard for me to imagine someone goes and introduces himself as a celibate gay to a stranger. Blame my poor imagination, I'd never do anything potentially dangerous in an unsafe environment if there was no reason, and I see no reason for stating this. And if they say this to people who've known them for long and respect them I don't suppose these people start to hate them just for that, though it's of course also possible.
Yeah, you do have a poor imagination. Do you know how often LGBTQ youth are thrown out of their homes for coming out to their families? Who's known you longer than your own parents? Yet that doesn't matter when homophobia and transphobia is involved.

hreru wrote:
Where was this? I've reread the entire discussion and I can't find anywhere where I appear to be doing what you seem to think I was.
Oh, TeneReef, not IpseDixit. I took the stolen bike quote as you agreeing.
I take back what I said. You do have a developed imagination if you can read that much into a throwaway quote from a stand-up comic.

hreru wrote:We come from different environments. I can't say for sure but I think when I attended ground school you'd be in worse troubles being a Catholic than being a gay. I also can't say for sure but I think nowadays if someone was bullied for being a gay the school would take it seriously.
It still depends very much on the school. Some schools in North American make all students sign a pledge saying they either they or their families do not engage in homosexual behaviour. If they violate it, they are expelled.

hreru wrote:Sorry, but I can't get the big picture Varislintu and you mentioned. It's difficult for me to think about people in terms of groups they belong to. I mean, of course I do know what you talk about and of course I know there are differences among groups but I can't judge if you're right in the point of a dominant position. I know what you say about it is "what they say" and I know "others" say it's quite the contrary. I can't tell, I never could in similar issues and I'm not going to try. As I see it, people belong to many groups, socially, psychologically, some dominant, some not; and I'm not able to choose one of the groups and make any conclusions about its qualities. I'm going to go on on my small personal level because here I'm on a firm land.
Let me introduce you to the concept of intersectionality. Everyone is a member of multiple groups, some dominant and some not. Not only is the interaction between them complex, but it also varies a lot by environment and context. There are situations where being White or male isn't an automatic advantage. But these are far outnumbered by the number and frequency of situations where it is.

I gave one example of intersectionality in my reply to Yserenhart, that of ageism, sexism, and heterosexism. Whether someone assumes two people are a couple (and what they feel about that) depends not only on what age each person is but what sex as well. Race plays a role, too: If I were of a different race than my husband, people would be much less likely to assume he's my father (even though he still could be).

hreru wrote:I did read what you wrote about HIPPA the first time you wrote it but I still didn’t know how it works in practice. I imagined there might be a box somewhere in the records for the authority to make medical decisions for the patient to be filled in and it was simply filled in by "linguoboy" once you let them know you're married, the end of the story
Except that people actually have to look at that box. A surprising amount of communication in medical settings is still oral. That's how the problem with my husband's HIV status persisted. The doctor conducting the pre-op interview got it right, but someone else transcribed it wrong. His doctor saw the mistake on his chart and had it corrected, but that took some time. Meanwhile, the nurse who read the chart had already given an oral report to the next nurse. (Nurses generally work 8-12 hour shifts and you may not have the same nurse from one day to the next.) She reported this on to the next nurse, who reported it to the next one, and so on. In fact, the way I found out about the mistake was that I overheard one nurse giving his report to another and asked about it. Nobody checked his chart, they just trusted what they were told.

Moreover, some people read what was in his chart and then ignored it because it didn't matter to them. That's the case with the doctor who asked, "How's Dad today?" At that point, the records had been corrected. More to the point, I'd told him directly who I was. That's important information. That's the kind of thing a health care provider needs to remember. But he didn't and didn't seem to think it was a big deal that he didn't. That is heterosexism in its rawest form. There are all sorts of ways of showing contempt for someone which fall short of actually flinging a slur at them.

hreru wrote:
Really, is this how low you're willing to set the bar?

Sure, how else. :wink: Once again, reread your first description of the hospital stay. I exaggerated on purpose to contrast what I considered understandable behaviour (and I also thought proper treatment) by the staff.
Why do I need to reread it? I lived it. I don't understand why the story about having to fight to correct the information on file changes anything. The photographer didn't know what it said in my husband's file. (It would've been a Federal offence to tell him without our permission.) He just didn't make the same heterosexist assumptions when he met us. Every single person in that hospital was capable of doing the same thing. Some did. Some didn't. And a few persisted in their wrong assumptions long after they'd been corrected. That was all clear in my earlier account, yet you still dismissed it.

hreru wrote:I'm going to ignore your last two sentences.
Why? I think it's true. I think you and I have very different ideas of what it means to "respect" someone who is different from you. As I told you before, I'm not willing to settle for tolerance. You are, and that represents a significant difference in our approaches.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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linguoboy
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Re: Homophobia

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-27, 22:18

Lauren wrote:Actually, and this is something you might not know, but trans men and non-binary AFAB (assigned female at birth) people have it better off than trans women and non-binary AMAB (assigned male at birth) people. The reason being? Misogyny. It's the same reason that girls being tomboys is mostly tolerated but boys doing stereotypically girly things are shunned and teased. Women doing manly things is seen as good, since men are the default in society and portrayed as superior, but men doing feminine things are seen as emasculated and weak and worthy of insult and even violence. Of course all trans people are likely to face discrimination just because we are different, but trans women are at the bottom of the food chain, especially trans women of color.
Psst, hreru! Here's another example of how intersectionality works, one that's better than the one I included in my response to you.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2015-03-27, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Homophobia

Postby Lauren » 2015-03-27, 22:33

Thanks. :D Yeah, knowing about gender stuff is kind of a part of the deal when being trans. ;P

Also, I'll assume you meant to say "here's" rather than "he's".
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Re: Homophobia

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-27, 23:09

Lauren wrote:Actually, and this is something you might not know, but trans men and non-binary AFAB (assigned female at birth) people have it better off than trans women and non-binary AMAB (assigned male at birth) people. The reason being? Misogyny. It's the same reason that girls being tomboys is mostly tolerated but boys doing stereotypically girly things are shunned and teased. Women doing manly things is seen as good, since men are the default in society and portrayed as superior, but men doing feminine things are seen as emasculated and weak and worthy of insult and even violence. Of course all trans people are likely to face discrimination just because we are different, but trans women are at the bottom of the food chain, especially trans women of color.

I can't say I knew that, but that makes sense.

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Re: Homophobia

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-27, 23:34

Lauren wrote:Also, I'll assume you meant to say "here's" rather than "he's".
Fixed.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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