LGBTQA+ issues

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Car » 2019-06-03, 20:20

In rugby, people are more open about it, see e.g. this list. When Israel Folau once again made homophobic comments on social media (no, not the ones mentioned in the link, this one is recent), he not only was kicked out, but another player was also warned and booed (this also happened in the match against Munster that is mentioned in the post), but that doesn't mean that all is fine, but still.
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Johanna » 2019-06-05, 7:35

In Sweden, quite a few female athletes are out. Among them Anja Pärsson (alpine skiing), Kajsa Bergqvist (high jump) and at least a fifth of the national soccer team, past and present. The reaction when a female athlete comes out is "OK, so what?" among the general population, and the more misogynist crowd goes "I knew it! All women who do something as manly as sports are really gay, you know."

I played soccer up until I was sixteen, and while the environment in the girls' team I was on wasn't exactly gay friendly, it wasn't hostile either. Same for riding horses and hanging out in the stable that was the center of a club with 800 members at the time, which I did until I was 21.

On the male side, I don't know of any who's at the very top and out. There has been like one or two a tier or two down, but that's it. From what those who are out have said, it's not because top male athletes necessarily hide who they are, it's that non-straight guys drop the whole thing in their teens when the rampant homophobia among coaches and teammates becomes so prevalent that they have to choose between their sport and their sanity.

Going back to the sports clubs I was in as a teenager, a gay guy riding horses would most likely have been accepted, it was just that there were so few male members at all that no one being openly gay was still within the usual statistics. An openly gay guy in the soccer club? No, just no.
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-06-29, 6:20

I've been looking a little more deeply than usual lately into how non-straights are treated in certain countries. I happened to find this article on Saudi Arabia, which kind of surprised me, to be honest:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... et/305774/

Apparently, in Saudi Arabia, despite the complete illegality of and harsh punishments for homosexuality, cruising is common, and there seems to be a common sentiment that it's easier not to be straight than to be straight.

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-03, 10:57

I'm very taken aback by the word "queer" when used by Italian-speaking LGBT+ people, because I doubt it makes any sense. AFAIK (and honestly, I might be wrong, I'm not well-versed in the history of the LGBT+ movement), "queer" is the result of a well-succeded attempt to hijack and give a positive twist to a word that was used disparagingly towards LGBT+ people in English-speaking countries. However the history of the word is completely lost when it enters Italian. "Queer" sounds just like a trendy anglicism over here. It almost serves the opposite purpose sometimes, that is saying you're LGBT+ in a covert way. I still remember a roommate advertisement that roughly translated to "we're looking for queer-friendly people", except that in Italian the vibes it was sending to me were "we don't even have the courage to openly say we're gay/trans/bi/whatever".

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-03, 16:58

Synalepha wrote:(and honestly, I might be wrong, I'm not well-versed in the history of the LGBT+ movement)[/size], "queer" is the result of a well-succeded attempt to hijack and give a positive twist to a word that was used disparagingly towards LGBT+ people in English-speaking countries.

No, you're correct about this. "Queer" also has specific political connotations which other terms lack and which also would be lacking in other languages. I can see trying to import the word in order to preserve these, since it's unlikely there's a word in Italian (or any other language) which conveys them, but that's a pretty ambitious project.
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby md0 » 2020-01-03, 17:36

There's also a stage 2 to this process of main-streaming 'queer' and the general framework it's supposed to represent. I was visiting a queer friend in Berlin last month, and one of the things they brought up is how, in Berlin, the definition of 'queer' expanded so much that most cis straight people qualify as queer by saying as little as "we share household chores equally", or "I enjoy being fingered by my girlfriend".

Nowadays I feel quite distanced from these issues. I used to like 'queer' as an umbrella term, as opposed to the ridiculous alphabet soup. But the whole idea of terms like that was to highlight the commonalities in the experience of a group of people. Expand the definition too much, and it becomes meaningless.
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-03, 17:50

md0 wrote:There's also a stage 2 to this process of main-streaming 'queer' and the general framework it's supposed to represent. I was visiting a queer friend in Berlin last month, and one of the things they brought up is how, in Berlin, the definition of 'queer' expanded so much that most cis straight people qualify as queer by saying as little as "we share household chores equally", or "I enjoy being fingered by my girlfriend".

I try not to gatekeep too much, but it is really odd to me how much a lot of straight cis people want to be lumped together with us now. I mean, I think it's really great that your leather sub pegs you with a strapon while you wear the fursuit your fartsniffing wife bought you, but you're still a straight cis man and your issues are not our issues.
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-04, 10:56

linguoboy wrote:
md0 wrote:There's also a stage 2 to this process of main-streaming 'queer' and the general framework it's supposed to represent. I was visiting a queer friend in Berlin last month, and one of the things they brought up is how, in Berlin, the definition of 'queer' expanded so much that most cis straight people qualify as queer by saying as little as "we share household chores equally", or "I enjoy being fingered by my girlfriend".

I try not to gatekeep too much, but it is really odd to me how much a lot of straight cis people want to be lumped together with us now. I mean, I think it's really great that your leather sub pegs you with a strapon while you wear the fursuit your fartsniffing wife bought you, but you're still a straight cis man and your issues are not our issues.


I know this is very controversial (at least in some internet circles) but personally, I really struggle to understand people who identify as non-binary but are completely gender conforming. I understand that gender identity and expression are two different things, but what kind of non-binary experience are you living or would like to live if you seem to perfectly function within the current gender binary?

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Aurinĭa » 2020-01-04, 14:44

How do you define "completely gender conforming"? How do you know whether someone "perfectly functions within the current gender binary" or only seems to, but doesn't actually feel comfortable with it?

Have you talked about this to people who identify as non-binary? Read about their thoughts, feelings, experiences?

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-04, 17:03

Aurinĭa wrote:How do you define "completely gender conforming"?


They're indistinguishable from any other man / woman by the standards of the culture they live in.

How do you know whether someone "perfectly functions within the current gender binary" or only seems to, but doesn't actually feel comfortable with it?


If you're not an emotionless robot, you can usually sense it when people are experiencing discomfort.

Have you talked about this to people who identify as non-binary? Read about their thoughts, feelings, experiences?


Can't people lie? I was decently good at pretending I was straight back when I was 17. I tend to think behavior is more important than what people tell you about themselves.

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Aurinĭa » 2020-01-04, 18:51

Synalepha wrote:
Aurinĭa wrote:How do you define "completely gender conforming"?

They're indistinguishable from any other man / woman by the standards of the culture they live in.

Indistinguishable in public? In private? How would you ever know that if you're not so close to them that they'd trust you with this information about themself?

How do you know whether someone "perfectly functions within the current gender binary" or only seems to, but doesn't actually feel comfortable with it?

If you're not an emotionless robot, you can usually sense it when people are experiencing discomfort.

:lol:

I guess that means a lot of people are emotionless robots a lot of the time.

Have you talked about this to people who identify as non-binary? Read about their thoughts, feelings, experiences?

Can't people lie? I was decently good at pretending I was straight back when I was 17. I tend to think behavior is more important than what people tell you about themselves.

Of course people can lie. I fail to see the connection between your statement and my questions, however. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can read non-binary people's thoughts and experiences about what it means to them to be non-binary and how they do or don't conform to society's ideas of gender and gender expression. If you are wondering about this, why not seek out what the people you're wondering about have to say on the topic?

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-04, 19:48

But the consensus seems to be that gender expression and identity are completely separate things, this is what the NB community says (at least IME) so it doesn't matter if I personally know someone or not. And I think I have an issue with this core idea.

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Aurinĭa » 2020-01-04, 20:00

Which issue? Gender identity and gender expression being different things? If you don't accept that, then I can see how you can't understand how they can be different for some people.

Whether or not you personally know them, and how well you know them, matter because unless you know them very well and/or they have talked about it in your presence, you are unlikely to know how (un)comfortable they are with being treated as a binary part of the gender binary.

There's no "the NB community". There are as many different opinions about what it means to be non-binary as there are non-binary people.

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Synalepha » 2020-01-04, 20:16

Yeah. I guess I don't accept that premise. I think gender is something one performs. I suppose I'll have to read Judith Butler one day, from the little info I've gathered about her I believe I might be very close to her ideas.

And yeah, I shouldn't have said community, but anyway that seems the most recurring concept among the NB people I've encountered (only on-line sadly).

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-01-04, 20:33

Synalepha wrote:If you're not an emotionless robot, you can usually sense it when people are experiencing discomfort.

If you can understand that lying is a thing, then surely you can understand that hiding your emotions is a thing. Suppressing your emotions is a thing, too.

Besides, emotions are often context-dependent. At my last job, I was so happy that people often flat-out refused to believe that I could have an anxiety-related disorder. People even had difficulty believing I could ever be sad or angry or just have negative emotions in general. But that's because that's all they ever saw of me. My job was terrible in many ways, but I made friends with pretty much everyone, even the janitors, and people trusted me so much that the validation I gained from all that trust and friendliness outweighed all the disadvantages for me while I was still there. I was genuinely happy around them, but they don't live with me and see me get into shouting matches with my parents, for instance.
Have you talked about this to people who identify as non-binary? Read about their thoughts, feelings, experiences?


Can't people lie? I was decently good at pretending I was straight back when I was 17. I tend to think behavior is more important than what people tell you about themselves.

Sure, people can lie, but I don't think these are the same thing. People often pretend to be straight because they live in heteronormative societies and it can be difficult or even dangerous to come out as gay. By contrast, if someone self-identifies as either a man or a woman, what do they stand to gain in terms of social acceptance or whatever by claiming they're non-binary?

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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Yasna » 2020-01-23, 1:28

Synalepha wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
md0 wrote:There's also a stage 2 to this process of main-streaming 'queer' and the general framework it's supposed to represent. I was visiting a queer friend in Berlin last month, and one of the things they brought up is how, in Berlin, the definition of 'queer' expanded so much that most cis straight people qualify as queer by saying as little as "we share household chores equally", or "I enjoy being fingered by my girlfriend".

I try not to gatekeep too much, but it is really odd to me how much a lot of straight cis people want to be lumped together with us now. I mean, I think it's really great that your leather sub pegs you with a strapon while you wear the fursuit your fartsniffing wife bought you, but you're still a straight cis man and your issues are not our issues.


I know this is very controversial (at least in some internet circles) but personally, I really struggle to understand people who identify as non-binary but are completely gender conforming. I understand that gender identity and expression are two different things, but what kind of non-binary experience are you living or would like to live if you seem to perfectly function within the current gender binary?

Blame intersectionality.

"Perhaps the most pernicious consequence of intersectionality, however, is its effect on the culture of elite college campuses. Some claims about “campuses-gone-crazy” are surely overblown. For instance, judging from my experience at Columbia, nobody believes there are 63 genders, and hardly anyone loves Soviet-style communism. (That said, the few communists on campus tend to despise intersectionality with an unusual passion.) But one thing is certainly not exaggerated: intersectionality dominates the day-to-day culture. It operates as a master formula by which social status is doled out. Being black and queer is better than just being black or queer, being Muslim and gender non-binary is better than being either one on its own, and so forth. By “better,” I mean that people are more excited to meet you, you’re spoken of more highly behind your back, and your friends enjoy an elevated social status for being associated with you.

In this way, intersectionality creates a perverse social incentive structure. If you’re cis, straight, and white, you start at the bottom of the social hierarchy—especially if you’re a man, but also if you’re a woman. For such students, there is a strong incentive to create an identity that will help them attain a modicum of status. Some do this by becoming gender non-binary; others do it by experimenting with their sexuality under the catch-all label “queer.” In part, this is healthy college-aged exploration—finding oneself, as it were. But much of it amounts to needless confusion and pain imposed on hapless young people by the bizarre tenets of a new faith."

Reflections on Intersectionality
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Car » 2020-01-28, 14:42

linguoboy wrote:
md0 wrote:There's also a stage 2 to this process of main-streaming 'queer' and the general framework it's supposed to represent. I was visiting a queer friend in Berlin last month, and one of the things they brought up is how, in Berlin, the definition of 'queer' expanded so much that most cis straight people qualify as queer by saying as little as "we share household chores equally", or "I enjoy being fingered by my girlfriend".

I try not to gatekeep too much, but it is really odd to me how much a lot of straight cis people want to be lumped together with us now. I mean, I think it's really great that your leather sub pegs you with a strapon while you wear the fursuit your fartsniffing wife bought you, but you're still a straight cis man and your issues are not our issues.

I had to think of your discussion when reading this article.

Edit: Did anyone else on here follow the Israel Folau saga? If you did, what do you make of his signing by the Catalan Dragons. As you can also read in the articles, entire competitions refused to let him (back) in.
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Osias » 2020-01-29, 18:52

linguoboy wrote:I try not to gatekeep too much, but it is really odd to me how much a lot of straight cis people want to be lumped together with us now.

There's a Porta dos Fundos video about that full of slang I don't fully understand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7qLkt4Ptug
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby Gormur » 2020-01-29, 21:55

Being gender-neutral, isn't that LGBT? You can't be a female unless you have mammary glands. You can't be male unless you have testes, you can't be a transvestite unless you have T&A. There i cleared it up for everyone. Now criticize me as this is what i learned in school. And i went to Christian school :P :lol:
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Re: LGBTQA+ issues

Postby linguoboy » 2020-01-29, 21:59

Gormur wrote:Being gender-neutral, isn't that LGBT?

Nope.

Gormur wrote:You can't be a female unless you have mammary glands.

So if you have a double mastectomy, you become exactly?

Gormur wrote:You can't be male unless you have testes

And if you lose these to testicular cancer, then what are you?

Gormur wrote:you can't be a transvestite unless you have T&A.

I don't think you understand what that word even means.
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